Author Topic: A Few Ideas for Series  (Read 5734 times)

fndrbndr

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2008, 06:04:25 AM »
So Bimmer and I got to talking last night.  The reason the Lotii are so good, I'm guessing, is that with such low hp, they can fit gigantic slicks and weigh next to nothing.  I mean, an A-class car with 250 hp must have ridiculous amounts of grip and weigh next to nothing, right?  Well, I decided to test this.  I have a pretty good grip car in the RX7 I'm currently working on.  I decided to build out an Elise and see whether, when 300 hp was required, it could walk away from my RX7.  Long story short, it can't.  I tried two relatively grip-friendly tracks, Mugello short and Silverstone Grand Prix. I wouldn't have thought that Silverstone would be a grip track, but for me, the grip cars are faster there.  Anyway, the Elise didn't turn out to be dominant at all.  I'm wondering whether we'll need to ban any cars under this spec.  It seems like the hp restriction handles a lot of this for us. 

Pete, I might try a PI-less system, just building everything to 400 hp and 2500 lbs.  Assuming cars have the same width tires and similar drag coefficients, they should be pretty equal.  I haven't tested this, though.
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BarbecuePete

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2008, 06:36:27 AM »
By going with HP and weight restrictions with no PI it really does level the playing field... A liittle while back I was helping Snyder out testing a few cars and we found the usual missile of choice Chevelle to be useless when restricted by HP and weight rather than PI...




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fndrbndr

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2008, 10:17:10 AM »
Real-world example:  The NASA's American Iron series runs a spec tire and a mandated hp/weight ratio.  Those are the only major restrictions IIRC (excluding safety requirements, etc).  You can get there however you like, for the most part.
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Open2nd

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2008, 01:16:28 PM »
Real-world example:  The NASA's American Iron series runs a spec tire and a mandated hp/weight ratio.  Those are the only major restrictions IIRC (excluding safety requirements, etc).  You can get there however you like, for the most part.

I like this idea a good bit.  Would this be any car, or would we limit it to 2000 and up models?  I'm really getting antsy to run this spec. XD

fndrbndr

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2008, 05:21:35 PM »
That particular spec is American V8's with live rear axles, basically muscle cars. 
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fndrbndr

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2008, 02:27:16 PM »
The more I think of this in-game, though, the more I worry.  PI is a very good predictor of laptimes, from what statistical testing I've done (Check the PI project in my garage if you want the dataset and my methods).  Getting rid of it may actually get rid of a major option for equalizing different cars.  All in all, it does its job pretty well, if its job is allowing tons of different cars to be on the same track together.  It fails on a few cars, IMO, and those are the leaderboard cars, but there seems to be a system there. 

Basically, think of PI in two dimensions, not one.  The north-south dimension is PI, from about 150 to 998 (lowest score to highest score that matters).  Now, think of a left-right continuum from maximum grip to maximum power.  Every car has a minimum amount of grip (stock weight and skinny stock tires) and a minimum amount of power (stock engine, no upgrades).  Ignore for the moment the effect of weight, or just think of it as part of the grip equation if you prefer.  A lotus comes stock with massive grip, weighing only a ton and basically having DOT tires stock.  Compared to other cars of its PI, it's going to be underpowered.  It suffers because of this at, say, Sunset, but makes up for this when you go to Tsukuba.  The same is true of the MKII and Mugen Integra.  In full-grip build, they have less hp than other similar cars.  The Mugen is about 225hp IIRC at full grip in B, and most of the sockmonkeys weigh in around 250.  The opposite is true for, say, the Charger.  In B class, it has 1097 hp, and is on pretty poor tires.  Basically, it only turns in theory.  If you show up with this at King Cobra, you're in for a very long day.  At Sunset, however, it should be very competitive, as it will cover the oval section in the blink of an eye. 

How does this play out in the choices of LB cars?  Simple.  Most tracks favor either grip or power pretty decisively.  The ability to hit warp speed on long straights or go through corners with the option of just letting off the gas instead of braking will make certain cars dominant on certain tracks. 

How does this effect the PI-less spec?  Well, my guess is that if we come up with a group of cars that have the same hp, weight, tires, and drag coefficient (as best we can figure-I think Blooze had a thread on calculating this), they'll all be at the same PI, or at least within a few points of it.  They'll also be at the same point on my left/right, grip/power scale, if I were to operationalize it somehow.  In short, my suspicion is that a PI-less spec will actually lead to LESS variation in the cars, not more.  Of course, I could easily be wrong on this.

Thoughts?
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Spiny Anteater

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2008, 01:35:45 PM »
I'd agree with you that getting rid of PI would favour some cars decisively over others. I too have noticed that PI seems a pretty good (not perfect, but pretty good) predictor of lap times. And I think that's a very good explanation you've put up there regarding the Missiles and Grip Monsters.

So, if you're planning on running a championship, I think this could be where the "single build, multiple tune" idea could be perfect. Yes, you can build your Charger to thrash the opposition at Sunset Short, but if you then have to run the same 1097bhp build with only a different tune at Malaysian Krait you're not going to dominate the championship.

The more I think about it, the more I prefer the "single build, multiple tune" theory. It measn you have to build up your car to suit your style, and that nobody will dominate throughout (although looking at the Clio Cup it seems there's a good crowd at the top of the Championship). Some car/driver combinations will do very well at certain circuits, but there would be a strategy element to the car choice if you wanted to win the series.
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fndrbndr

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2008, 01:53:33 PM »
I'm starting to be reconsider my anti-single-build mindset.  My main reason for it is that I like the idea of separate research and development for each race.  I like the idea of, say, switching to a cam build one week to keep from spinning the tires, and going with a torque build the next.  I don't have a problem with the idea of everyone having a 300 hp lightweight build and 400 hp "missile" (if we're talking 300-400 hp, then there won't be true missiles or true grip monsters), but I can understand how some would.  It would, to say the least, be inefficient.  It could also limit the car choices to those who can fit 300hp worth of grip on the sliding scale I mentioned above.  I'm torn between my RX7, which is a 2000 lbs grip monster, and something more conventional, perhaps my 2000GT or Z.  Also, wouldn't track selection be an issue in this?  We need a balance of tracks.  Any that people want to be sure to include or avoid?
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Spiny Anteater

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2008, 01:54:59 PM »
I'd say to avoid New York - you just know that would end up as a crash-fest ::)
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fndrbndr

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2008, 02:02:19 PM »
interesting you say that.  I'd think NY would be OK for online racing.  I'mnot sure how I feel about Tsukuba, though.  My thought is passing lanes.  That said, I want Maple Valley in.  :D
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bimmerlovere39

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2008, 02:59:31 PM »
I'd agree with you that getting rid of PI would favour some cars decisively over others. I too have noticed that PI seems a pretty good (not perfect, but pretty good) predictor of lap times. And I think that's a very good explanation you've put up there regarding the Missiles and Grip Monsters.

So, if you're planning on running a championship, I think this could be where the "single build, multiple tune" idea could be perfect. Yes, you can build your Charger to thrash the opposition at Sunset Short, but if you then have to run the same 1097bhp build with only a different tune at Malaysian Krait you're not going to dominate the championship.

The more I think about it, the more I prefer the "single build, multiple tune" theory. It measn you have to build up your car to suit your style, and that nobody will dominate throughout (although looking at the Clio Cup it seems there's a good crowd at the top of the Championship). Some car/driver combinations will do very well at certain circuits, but there would be a strategy element to the car choice if you wanted to win the series.



My thoughts, exactly, Spiny.

As I remember in the build up, they introduced the PI system under the theory that two cars would be competitive over all the tracks - basically, if you ran all the hotlaps in a 1097hp Charger and a Mugen 'Teggy, you'd get a similar total time. 

This is where my dislike for a One Car, Multiple Builds, Multiple Tunes theory comes from.  For one thing, it would likely take too much time to test and tune a new build each week.    Second, I think it would limit the number of cars to cars that can make effective missile and grip car.

So yeah, I officially endorse One Car, One Build, Multiple Tunes.  :)
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Open2nd

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2008, 03:42:35 PM »
One build, multiple tunes for sure.

Would DLC tracks be up for the running or is that a no-no?

If they are allowed, I think both need to be run.

Proposed Track Schedule:

Sunset Peninsula Infield Reverse Full - week 1
Sebring Full - week 2
Maple Valley Forward or Reverse - week 3
Motegi Full - week 4
Suzuka Full - week 5
Silverstone Full - week 6

If a longer schedule is desired;

Road America - week 7
Laguna Seca - week 8

That spans two months easy, and the track variations seem to be fairly well rounded.

BarbecuePete

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2008, 06:55:15 PM »
How many laps would the races be?

I like the idea of using the longer tracks and think at least 25 laps so that there's some stratagy invovled in tyre choice and pitstops to mix things up a bit..

I say this because I had a 25 lap race at Laguna Seca tonight with Spiny and a few others and everyone pitted except me.. I just made it to the finish with fumes left in the tank but it meant I came third instead of last as I was about a second off the pace of everyone else.. The reason my tyres lasted (just) was because I was using Michelin's and I think everyone else was on the Avons..


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Snyder005

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2008, 08:00:58 PM »
One build, multiple tunes for sure.

Would DLC tracks be up for the running or is that a no-no?

If they are allowed, I think both need to be run.

Proposed Track Schedule:

Sunset Peninsula Infield Reverse Full - week 1
Sebring Full - week 2
Maple Valley Forward or Reverse - week 3
Motegi Full - week 4
Suzuka Full - week 5
Silverstone Full - week 6

If a longer schedule is desired;

Road America - week 7
Laguna Seca - week 8

That spans two months easy, and the track variations seem to be fairly well rounded.

I would say they seem to lean more toward power, i would include Tsukuba and definitely Mugello, or perhaps Replace Road America with Road Atlanta (potential DLC complications).  Besides that, it looks like a well balanced.

fndrbndr

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Re: A Few Ideas for Series
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2008, 08:38:30 PM »
Definitely a bit power-happy.  I don't want to see Tsukuba used in a series just because it's so tight.  It's really hard to race online there, since there are few meaningful passing zones.  A shorter series than the clios would be good, too.  My guess at a calendar:

Road Atlanta
Maple Valley
Sebring
Laguna
Silverstone
Mugello

Some power, some flowing, some twisty, no DLC.  Thoughts?
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