B - Class FWD

[BarbecuePete]

Here's some of the B-class cars i've been working on in my garage...

Mini Cooper S (2 builds)

VW Corrado (2 builds)

Nissan Sentra

VW Beetle

Bulds / Details posted in seperate posts below...

[TopBoost]

Volkswagen love.  That's awesome, Pete.  I'm excited to see what you're developing.

[BarbecuePete]

Mini Cooper S

I've now built up 2 vesions of this car, the original JPS Livery and a new build and tune in Camel livery, the builds are only slightly different in that the new build has slightly more tyre and slightly less power compared to the original...

Stats \ Car	JPS Livery	Camel Llivery
POWER	254 @ 6,000	248 @ 6,000
TORQUE	253 @ 4,000	246 @ 4,000
WEIGHT	2132	2120
ACCEL	4.9	4.8
SPEED	4.2	4.1
BRAKES	6.0	6.1
HANDLING	5.6	5.7

QR	192.365	192.406
Road Atlanta Short	58.133	58.188
Sebring Short	76.941	76.825
Tsukuba	57.291	57.393

I've only built up the new version this week but I've been running the JPS one for a while and its got me many quick lap times and race victorys and a recent small re-tune has made it perform even better... The new build though I feel has potential to be even faster thanks to its extra grip and its not far off power wise... it will be interesting to see how the QR's turn out..

Edit:- QR results and tunes With the QR's now run im suprised at just how close the 2 cars come with barely 400ths between the 2 times overall. Im really pleased with the times, I would have liked to have broken into the 57's on RAS but getting into the 76's for the first time with a FWD at Sebring and new PB times at Tsukuba made up for it.

Im most suprised that I seem to have broken the QR system though with the 'Grip' car getting the better time on the power track and the 'power' build getting better times at the grip tracks... 

I can only think that the hills at RAS and the acceleration from low speed required at Tsukuba just give the edge to the power build where Sebring being flat and having quite flowing turns just allows the grip build to sneak ahead.. But there is really very little to choose between the 2 cars..

Builds

JPS LIVERY	CAMEL LIVERY
CHASSIS /WHEELS
Race WR & Platform	Race WR & Platform
215/35 R18 Bridgestone Slicks	225/30 R19 Michelin Slicks (+8 PI)
HRE S40R Wheels	Gram Light 57C Wheels  (-12 Lbs / +3 PI)
Full Forza Aero	Full Forza Aero
ENGINE
Sport Intake	Street Intake
Sport Exhaust	Street Exhaust
Race Ignition	Race Ignition
Race Fuel	Race Fuel
Stock Cam	Stock Cam
Race Block	Sport Block
Stock Intercooler	Sport Intercooler
Stock Supercharger	Race Supercharger (+4.4 psi / 42.7% increase)

Main differances betwwen the 2 builds are slightly bigger and wider wheels on the new version although they are still 12lbs lighter than the ones on the original build, It tyres are a slightly lower rated brand but it still has more grip... Also the engines centre around different areas of upgrade while both retain the standard cams, adding cams doesn't really work on this car, you get HP but really lose out on torque compared to building up other areas of the engine...

Tunes

Part \ Car	JPS Livery	Camel Llivery
Tyres	28/30	27 / 30
FD	2.80	3.20
Gears 1-6	3.30 /2.15 / 1.63 / 1.30 /1.10 / N/A	2.90 / 2.12 / 1.67 / 1.39 / 1.19
Camber	-0.7 / -0.7	-0.9 / -0.7
Toe	0.2 / 0.2	0.0 / 0.0
Caster	2.5	2.0
ARB	1 / 40	1 / 40
Springs	277.7 / 277.9	275.2 / 275.2
Ride	4.6 / 4.6	4.6 / 4.6
Rebound	9.3 / 9.3	10 / 10
Bump	3.9 / 3.8	5 / 5
Aero	85 / 80	85 / 75
Brakes	50 / 100	50 / 100
Diff	20 /0	20 / 0

Fairly similar tunes, im suprised at just how close as I tuned both cars seperatly and this is the first time i've seen them side by side... The slghtly odd gear set on the JPS is a tweaked version of the long 3/4 speed gear set I was running on this car originally hence the tall FD. Also the really low caster just seems to work on the Mini...

[BarbecuePete]

VW CORRADO

I've now built up 2 vesions of this car as well, both cars have an H&R Springs livery but in different colours, The original build is a full lightweight grip build, the new version adds some weight back on and more power with different tyre brand.. I basically wanted a G60 version with a supercharger, I couldn't get it to work in B with full WR but adding the weight back on has actually made the car feel a little less inclined to push in the corners, I think taking all the weight off means that big old V6 out front is having even greater effect on the balance of the car so putting some back balances it out a bit better..

Stats \ Car	Lightweight (Blue)	G60 Supercharged (Green)
POWER	239 @ 5,800	276 @ 5,800
TORQUE	238 @ 4,200	274 @ 4,200
WEIGHT	2226	2574
ACCEL	4.7	4.7
SPEED	4.4	4.7
BRAKES	5.9	5.7
HANDLING	5.6	5.4

QR	192.828	191.987
Road Atlanta Short	58.417	57.979
Sebring Short	76.859	76.197
Tsukuba	57.552	57.811

The original build works well but is nothing spectacular, its done ok online with 17 podiums from 29 races but only 4 victories, The new build I think has real promise, as I said the extra weight makes the car feel less skitish and more confident in the turns also the extra power really pushes it down the straights so it does what the original was good at but better, again QR's to follow and see if im actually right about its better performance on the stopwatch...

Edit:- QR results and tunes With the QR's run on these cars I'm amazed at just how quick the supercharged version is beating out both the Mini's QR's by nearly half a second, Im also pleased that the original build is still within half a second of the Mini's in its QR as I knew that build wasn't so quick, but it does hold my PB on Road Atlanta Long for now, probably until I run the supercharged version there... 

The Sebring Short time for the Supercharged version is a new PB for me, beating out a long held PB in my M-inc Spec Corvette ZR and much faster than any of my other FWD cars.. and to be honest I wasn't expecting it to go so well at RAS or Tsukuba because of its heavier weight but its times show it really is a quick car all round but probably better suited to longer tracks.. I also took it out to the Nurbugring to see what it could really do and took 20 seconds off my PB running an 8:16.595.. not bad for a 2500lb car with less than 300 bhp.. I knew a G60 replica would be good.. 

Builds

Lightweight N/A Build	G60 Supercharged Build
CHASSIS /WHEELS
Race WR & Platform	Race Platform & Sport WR
225/40 R16 Avon Slicks	225/35 R17 Bridgestone Slicks
Konig Blatent Wheels	Racing Dynamics RGS Wheels
Full Forza Aero	Full Forza Aero
Oettinger Side Skirts	Oettinger Side Skirts
ENGINE
Sport Intake	Stock Intake
Sport Exhaust	Stock Exhaust
Race Ignition	Race Ignition
Race Fuel	Race Fuel
Stock Cam	Stock Cam
Stock Block	Sport Block
No Intercooler	No Intercooler
No Forced Inducion	Sport PD Supercharger

Tunes

Part \ Car	Lightweight N/A build (Blue)	G60 Supercharged (Green)
Tyres	28/30	28 / 30
FD	3.00	3.00
Gears 1-6	2.63 / 1.83 / 1.34 / 1.03 / N/A / N/A	2.63 / 1.88 / 1.44 / 1.16 / 0.98 / 0.85
Camber	-0.7 / -0.7	-0.7 / -0.7
Toe	0.2 / 0.0	0.2 / 0.0
Caster	4.5	4.5
ARB	1 / 40	1 / 40
Springs	327.2/ 319.0	378.3 / 368.8
Ride	6.5 / 6.6	6.5 / 6.6
Rebound	10.2 / 10.0	10.2 / 10
Bump	3.6 / 3.5	3.6 / 3.5
Aero	85 / 65	85 / 65
Brakes	50 / 100	50 / 100
Diff	25 /0	25 / 0

Same tune for both cars save gearing and springs adjusted for weight, the 4 speed gearbox on the original may get changed at some point to the same as the other one.. but i'll probably be using the other car anyway. It just feels much more planted on the road and less liable to push on in the corners than the lightweight version.

[BarbecuePete]

VW Beetle

I decided to try the VW Beetle after searching through most of the other small FWD cars, I wanted to avoid any VVT engines as they are difficult to get much torque out of and I also find them difficult to get off the line without either spinning the wheels or bogging down.... In the end my search for torque lead found me at the beetle, its turbocharged engine just right for getting strong torque figures, also I've not seen many in B-Class so it would give me a chance to run a rarely seen car... the engine build on this car has taken forms, I originally went for the turbo upgrade to move the peak torque further up the rev range at the expense of greater peak torque but lower down the rev range with the standard turbo.. If you want to read more detail they are posted over in Drifts Garage in the engine building thread... but the short version is I've now gone back to the standard turbo as even though the torque curve peaks low down and then drops off it still produces more torque at all revs than you get with the upgraded turbo...

Stats	Red Bull VW Beetle
POWER	244 @ 6,800
TORQUE	238 @ 2,800
WEIGHT	2238
ACCEL	4.8
SPEED	3.9
BRAKES	6.2
HANDLING	5.7

QR	193.116
Road Atlanta Short	58.331
Sebring Short	77.296
Tsukuba	57.489

As i've just gone back to the standard turbo with this car I've not had a chance to run it and see what sort of times it can do, Im going to keep it for short twisty tracks like Tsukuba and the snakes as it has no top speed but good acceleration, braking and handling... The build with the sport turbo was good at Tsukuba and also not too bad at silverstone international..

Edit:- QR and Tune Added

QR on the Beetle comes up slower than the other cars, but only by just over a second, it is really hurt by its lack of top speed but does have good handling which enables it to not lose out too much and with its good acceleration its better for twisty tracks... So I've decided to also run a PR, TR and FR for all of the cars now to see where their strengths really are...

Build

Red Bull VW Beetle

CHASSIS /WHEELS

Race WR & Platform

235/30 R19 Avon Slicks

OZ Superleggera IIII Wheels

Full Forza Aero

Caracture Side Skirts

ENGINE

StockIntake

Race Exhaust

Race Ignition

Race Fuel

Stock Cam

Stock Block

Sport Intercooler

Stock Turbo

Tunes

Part \ Car	Red Bull VW Beetle
Tyres	28/29
FD	3.20
Gears 1-6	3.10 / 2.20 / 1.66 / 1.32 / 1.09 / 0.95
Camber	-0.8 / -0.8
Toe	0.1 / 0.0
Caster	2.5
ARB	1 / 40
Springs	301.9 / 330.0
Ride	5.3 / 5.3
Rebound	11.0 / 11.0
Bump	5.0 / 5.0
Aero	85 / 75
Brakes	50 / 100
Diff	20 /0

This car really does have tons of grip, I've started running the TR, FR and PR tracks already and this car is really showing its strenth in the twistys on Boomslang, I put in an almost pefect lap in the mini and was still a 10th off the Beetle's time... and I didn't have to try anywhere near as hard to get a perfect lap in the Beetle either so a re-run may be in order with an extra tight wheel nut.. lol. It does really lose out in a straight line though at Infield its 5mph slower than the Mini's down the S/F straight and a full second slower in lap time... Once i've finished running my testing on all these cars im going to take the Beetle out to the TT tracks, my original tune on  the JPS mini proved to be quite quick on the TT's so im hoping with its extra grip this car should be able to beat some of its times with all those tight corners...

[BarbecuePete]

Nissan Sentra


Place Holder... (F1 Qualifying is starting... lol)

[BarbecuePete]

Volkswagen love.  That's awesome, Pete.  I'm excited to see what you're developing.

Yeah I've got a bit of a soft spot for the Corrado, Its one of many cars I'd like to own in RL.. Especially in Supercharged G60 form.. 

Also the Beetle I built up as I'd maybe only seen 1 or 2 Online in B-class so I wanted to see what it could do, Its got no top speed but I think its got real potential for short twisty tracks.

The second Mini was built as I wanted to try out a few different things without braking down my original which is my favorite B-class FWD car and a Sentra I had meant to build for a while but never got Round TUIT. This week I got one with a BTCC livery on it so it was a good excuse to get building.. Sentra is a very quick car, wide tyres and a strong engine meant I got a new PB at road Atlanta Short in its first race!

With all these cars I spent a lot of time trying different engine builds to try and get the most HP and Torque from them with the available PI afer losing weight and adding tyres. With the Beetle though I sacrficed on peak torque for a flatter torque curve by upgrading the turbo so that the torque dropped off less hgher up in the rev range and meant the torque was in a more available range used when racing.. I've posted up in Drifts gargage in the Engine building thread if anyone wants to discuss whether they would have gone for a higher peak figure but lower in the rev range or a flatter torque curve with more torque higher up the rev range... here's a link.. 

Edit: - After running a full dyno on both builds I've now gone back to the stock turbo.. this is also posted in Drifts garage.

http://forza-tuning.net/index.php/topic,599.15.html

[sk15kev]

Looking forward to this one too Pete.  I also have two minis at b Class.  One for the twisty tracks and one for the more open tracks like Silverstone.  I find the narrow tires work better on the twistys, imo gives you better turn in.  Going to particular interest to your gearing if you disclose it, something I think I have never got right.

As for the Corrado, I too have one of those that I am very proud of. I recommend the race exhaust tho, it plays a very pretty tune.  Are they all staying FWD?  I did dabble with AWD at B Class, but found you either had to sacrifice a lot of grip or power.



Intersted in the engine building, going there next.......

[Spiny Anteater]

...  I find the narrow tires work better on the twistys, imo gives you better turn in... 

I'd second this - if you have a choice of upgraded tyre compund or upgraded tyre width go for the compund wherever possible. Like Kev, I've always found that the fat tyres seem to take longer to turn in.

[BarbecuePete]

Intresting point you make about the tyres, it may be my driving style but I found with the Mini going up one wdth and down a couple of brands has made the new build much grippier in the turns and on initial turn in.

Looking at the builds I would say that this is down to the combination of the change in tyre brands to a more responsive one, Bridgestone to Michelin. The loss of grip in this switch is retrieved by going to wider wheels with a lower profile and also having lighter wheels, 12 lbs lighter even though they are bigger...

I am thinking that the Michelin slicks are one of the better choices for my online race cars, I tend to run in rooms with simulation tyres and fuel and if we start running longer than 5 lap races and I use a car with say avons fitted, they start to drop of in performance, which can mean running off the track where the Michelins will do 10 laps easily with the same level of performance...

The Michelin slicks are used on the Clio cup cars and during testing I have run 25 laps with near identical times for all 25 laps because the tyres perform so consistantly..

[BarbecuePete]

Looking forward to this one too Pete.  I also have two minis at b Class.  One for the twisty tracks and one for the more open tracks like Silverstone.  I find the narrow tires work better on the twistys, imo gives you better turn in.  Going to particular interest to your gearing if you disclose it, something I think I have never got right.

As for the Corrado, I too have one of those that I am very proud of. I recommend the race exhaust tho, it plays a very pretty tune.  Are they all staying FWD?  I did dabble with AWD at B Class, but found you either had to sacrifice a lot of grip or power.



Intersted in the engine building, going there next.......

Just wanted to add a couple of things to answer your other questions kev...

Gearing is also one area where I've tried some new things lately, I had tended towards long gearing originally to save on gear changes, however lately I've been going shorter than usual but still with a good long launch gear, my cars do tend to beat most FWD compotition off the line...

Also I really like the sound of the Corrado with the race exhaust, I just couldn't fit in on with my builds.. The car did originally start out in A-class with a race exhaust and cams on it and the only way I can discribe the amazing sound it made is... A pack of wild dogs being thrown into a blender... 

The engine building is probably the most critical element of building these cars as you are quite restricted in how much power you can add, all these cars are FWD and even the Corrado with less WR still has under 300bhp, I did build up an '07 Civic with an AWD swap and full lightwieght and slicks was just too slow, I had to go down a level of WR and go down to DoT tyres and could still only fit 291 bhp... although I am going to revisit this build after the results with the Beetle I should be able to get more torque out of it...

[sk15kev]

Your building these up nicely Pete, the anticipation is building!

[TheJohnNewton]

Hmmm...  I have a painted up Corrado I got off the aution house just waiting in the back corner of the garage for a build and tune.  I may have have to try yours out.

[BarbecuePete]

QR's and tunes now posted above for the Mini's and the Corrado's... Barely a ciggerette paper between the 2 Mini builds in QR but the new heavier Supercharged version of the Corrado is extremely fast, nearly a second faster than the original build and beating the Mini's QR's by nearly 1/2 a second.. It also got me a new PB at Sebring Short beating a time long held my M-inc ZR1 and it also proved to be quick when I took it out for trip to the Nurburgring... 

[Spiny Anteater]

You're right about the hill at Road Atlanta - if your gearing is wrong or you lack torque you are going to struggle up that hill on the shortcut. But you still need good handling to make the rest of the track work. As for Sebring, it isn't quite as much of a power track as it first appears, but I would say that it's still one where you cannot afford to be underpowered.