Hatchback Hired Guns - Maple Valley Reverse; CLOSED

[Spiny Anteater]

My initial idea was to use the Sentra or the PT Cruiser. But the Sentra isn't a hatchback and while the Cruiser is eligible I decided I liked it sitting in C Class where it is right now. So, I had a look at the list of hatches, and tried to find something interesting that I haven't done anything with yet. It came down to a choice of MINI (boring - everyone runs them), R5 (ditto), Axela or my eventual choice, the Corrado. There's others that met the untried criterion, but it was only those 4 which grabbed my attention.

Then I went to the paint shop, and didn't come out until almost the end of the session. The FSFocus needs retuning and rebuilding as it's currently on stock tyres with low weight IIRC. I didn't run it last night but it's current best is a 93.1s

With the Corrado I ran it stock weight, with full fat Avon slicks, the 4WD swap and as much power as I could get in there. But I only had time left for 2 laps, or one flying lap. A time of 93.8 including 0.6s penalty suggests potential, despite the horrific understeer which felt like someone had spread Castrol GTX over the front tyres. But, that's untuned with 30psiF/R, and judging by the differences in temperature I'm sure that a large amount of that understeer can be tuned out just with the tyres.

***BAD PUN ALERT***

I might even get around to tuning other bits tonight too, but the focus will be on the Focus

[TheJohnNewton]

Spiny,

Ouch!  But that reminds me, I let some air out of my Mini's front tires as the pressure was getting a bit high but then the first lap was like driving on ice.  If I were racing online rather than doing hot laps I think I'd just let the tires go to a high pressure and not give up so much on the first lap.  Anyone have any negative experience with high pressure (> 34) in the tires assuming the temps don't go too high?  I'm usually shooting for 32 psi when warm.

[Hoplee]

Spiny, I knew there was a reason we get along so well!

The mystery FWD chariot I picked up last night was...(*drum roll)

THE CORRADO!

It stayed FWD for all of 60 seconds before I swapped in the AWD drive-train. Then I proceeded to add just about everything except boost to the engine. I think I'm currently on Yokohama slicks, and I ran with full aero equipment. I can't remember the level of weight reduction, but I think the total wound up around 2300 lbs. I then cranked the FD enough to put the engine in the red-line going up that first hill for max power, and I was doing about 137-138mph at the crest. Overall, I felt the car was really easy to control, so I just drove it like that for a few laps. After 8 or 10 laps, I checked tire pressures and temperatures. The temps were pretty darn even side to side, and the rear looked fine running ~180°F at 30 psi initial setting. The fronts were over 212° F, even though they started at the same 30 psi initial pressure, so I lowered the fronts to 28psi, which did a lot more than just make my telemetry look better! (see notes next paragraph re: last turn)

Next I did something that I usually don't do to any car... unless it's AWD! I started with max aero settings F&R to get a feel for what was ultimately available as far as aerodynamic loading. After I got used to the way that felt and behaved, I lowered the rear down-force to make it even with the front at 125 lbs. This one change, combined with the tire pressure adjustment, made immediate, noticeable and significant improvements to the car's attitude in all corners, but was especially useful in the last sweeper, as I was able to get on the throttle and stay on it MUCH earlier. My next step will be to continue to reduce the rear down-force setting until it causes problems. If no issues are encountered, I'm going to get rid of the rear wing entirely and try a non-adjustable variant, or I may simply eliminate the piece entirely.

I've been chasing my A-Class Viper ghost around here, and the Corrado is already nipping at it's heels with a 91.805. Without any changes to the tune or setup, there's easily another half second to be had. With a better driver, this one is under 90 seconds, no problem.

NOTE: This little Dubber gets to 60mph in about 2.7 seconds, and the next milestone, 100mph, shows up in about 7 seconds... W O W !  

[barumba]

Tweaked the gears a bit, today. And for what it is worth, since a few mentioned weight, here are my new best times.
I included the gears and times from last night for comparison, I bolded todays numbers:

VW Golf GTi MkV (A842, 2418#): FD=300, 1:34.135 Today FD=330, 1:32.567
Ford FocusSport Focus (A842, 2262#): FD=330, 1:34.082 Today FD=350, 1:32.538
And the protagonist, Ford Focus SVT (A850, 2153#): FD=330, 1:34.356 Today FD=370, 1:33.124

So, with a bit of acceleration added, and setting the gears so that one downshift at the end of turn 5 (just before the last splash of red maple leaves), just before diving down into 6 allows a nice transition and avoids offing into the gravel at the bottom of the hill before 6. I like getting through there without having to break, letting the compression slow me down and setting up 6 and the run under the bridge quite nicely.

Anyway, I'm happy I got another second and a bit out of each car.

[larryCR]

Added some aero pieces to the Golf, and a bit more power. Much more consistent laps this way, and just a hair faster.

I also got out the Lancia Delta from the Rallycross Challenge of a few weeks back. For me, at least, AWD seems to be a fairly big advantage at several places on this track. The Delta isn't as fast in the fast parts, but the lap times are better because I can get it back on the power sooner going down the hill and in the next tight corner.

Golf Mk5: 90.870
Lancia Delta: 90.789

[Hoplee]

Been playing with some cars tonight and a few show good results.

Renault 5 89.741 rwd.

Lancia delta 90.463 awd

I will post parts and tunes if anyone is interested

YES PLEASE!

FCT A Class VW Corrado
v330-323-2303
Yokomama racing tires
max tire width
race WR & platform
AWD swap
race intake, exhaust, ignition, fuel
full FM2 aero

tires psi: 27/29

current gearset:
FD 3.99
1st def
2nd 1.98
3rd 1.49
4rth 1.17
5th 0.98
6th 0.86

NOTES:
1) Tire pressures are good for current brand, short race or endurance

2) Gears 4,5 and 6 are CRITICAL and their shift points must be determined with the track in mind

3) Last aero settings F/R 125/125, next setting for hot lap 125/50

[Hoplee]

Barthanatos is always informative, Here he weighs in, guns blazing, on the subject of gearing.

EDITand he mentions spreadsheets, word.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/1841325.aspx

[BarbecuePete]

I've also built up a Corrado but I left mine FWD and I think I have a contender for best sounding engine in the game, kinda sounds like a pack of wild dogs being thrown into a blender... 

Had a quick run out in this and the Focus Sport, and they are very closey matched for me, just need more seat time, running around the mid 92's in both cars with minimal tuning so far... should get more track time tonight to set some proper times, I wasn't running very good hotlaps yesterday so I went racing instead, needed a bit of compatition.... If I see anyone on later I might go ahead and setup a room for some online testing and see if that helps my lap times too...

[chuckrateez]

I re-built a Sprinter Trueno that I already had in my garage with slicks + tire width + aero + a fully built/cammed OEM NA engine. I tweaked the final drive to keep me at the very top of 6th all the way up the first hill, and was generally around 134-136mph when I crested. (HINT: If over-revving had been allowed to damage anything, my engine would've been JUNK after lap one. ) It's a fast car with friggin amazing brakes. It takes a smooth hand to get the most out of it, because the car's amazing handling will forgive some pretty gross driver errors. There were quite a few laps without any penalty time, but those same lap times were often 2 or 3 whole seconds behind, just because I made a horrible, time-consuming mistake that the car saved me from (like going 100 yards down the straight in a complete drift, etc) The LARGE margin of error that the Sprinter will allow you to recover from can make you lazy about staying on the fastest line, because in this car, they all 'feel' pretty good, even if they're costing you time. I tried it with weight reduction and without, but decided that I preferred the heavier, more powerful car for powering up the crucial first hill. However, even without weight reduction, my Sprinter is only 2200-2300 lbs. The lap times didn't go below 92 seconds or so on the first night out, but I still haven't tuned anything other than FD yet. I have absolute confidence that this car can get under 90 seconds if driven with finesse, but it's still a boring car, even after paint.

Next, I left the little Toyota Sprinter behind and actually bought a FWD car...stay tuned.

   I took the Sprinter back out after adding the weight back on and using the extra points to build it up to all race exhaust, intake, fuel, ignition, cams and block with just enough left for a little (street) positive displacement SC.  That was a mistake, as the rear end kept trying to beat the front into turns.     I wound up just scrapping the SC and didn't even try to plug the points back in anywhere else.  It immediately drove better.

   I was thinking about what you wrote above (its handling forgiving some pretty gross errors), and you were spot-on.  Many times the rear would start to let go, but the car still let you bring it back in line.  I'm not a good driver (I routinely make pretty gross errors), so I'm not sure I'm the person to bring out the be(a)st in this car. 

   I didn't ever feel like I got a consistent run (didn't have much time to play around), but I'll tweak the gears and rest of the tune today and see if I can at least bring it down below 94.xx (that would be good for me).  Anyhow, putting the weight back on seems to be a good thing.  I just need to re-think some of the other bits.

   I'm also thinking about playing around with that ugly little Renault I've got sitting in my garage (Clio Sport).  I've never driven a MR hatchback before.   


      Chuck

[TheJohnNewton]

You guys still own my butt.  I tried the ugly turbo 5.  I almost got it to feel good, it's still a little more touchy than I'd like but then I normally drive in D and C class    I could not break into the 91s with it.  I think I heard the crew muttering something about driver skill but I'm sure it was all good...  right? 

[Spiny Anteater]

I've also built up a Corrado ...

Had a quick run out in this and the Focus Sport, and they are very closey matched for me...

Not for me I suspect. I rebuilt and retuned the FSFocus last night so that is probably as good as I can get it, but I only tuned the tyres, diffs and brakes and set the aero to max on the Corrado. Even those small changes were enough to knock about a second off the lap time and put the Corrado at a 91.7 second time.

Trouble is that the Focus was amazing - it didn't just beat my Spirra's top A-Class time, it beat it by almost half a second despite a couple of minor errors. I'm not quite sure how I managed it, but if you back off in a corner it tightens it's line. Get back on the power and start the inside front spinning up, and it pulls itself into an even tighter line. The one thing it doesn't like is entering a corner too fast, and I'm sure I can find a cure for that - just don't go into a corner too hot. But, with a 46% front brake bias, you can tap the brake and that will bring the back end round if needed. Somehow, adding d/f and slicks, and removing some bhp has turned a car which had back wheels made of ice into an absolute grip monster, and I'm only running the skinny tyres. I will definitely get the paper out and post this tune up in the next couple fo days. Only trouble is, I think I'm going to fail in the aim of this challenge - I'm too slow to beat this in the Corrado. But I'll have fun trying

FocusSport Focus: 89.590

It's not me on this one - it's the car. I think i might have found a new online car for certain tracks. Thanks Dirt

[Snyder005]

i'm back for my 2nd vacation, so i'll try and get some times in.  I wanna try out the DLC Peugeot and any of the SEAT's.  They are definitely my favorite hatchbacks.

[bazdc2]

Been playing with some cars tonight and a few show good results.

Renault 5 89.741 rwd.

Lancia delta 90.463 awd

I will post parts and tunes if anyone is interested


YES PLEASE!

New time for renault 5 88.883

PARTS

stock engine
race intake
race exhaust
sports ignition
sports fuel system
street cams
race block
sport ic
sport turbo
full platform
slick tires full width
full areo kit
biggest stock wheels

TUNE

tires 29/29
gearing five speed fd 3.15 1st 2.89 2nd 1.99 3rd 1.51 4th 1.21 5th 1.05
camber-0.8/-0.5
toe 0.0/0.0
caster 5.7
arb 9.99/8.99
springs 216/289
ride height 5.3/5.5
rebound 14/14
bump damp 7/7
aero 84lbs/122lbs
brakes 55% front
diff 38%/38%

313bhp 299lb-ft 1847lbs

4.4/7.0/6.8/6.2

[Spiny Anteater]

I was just about to say that the Focus had just been walloped by a "friend of Hop's with limited internet access"  and up he pops with a time which I definitely won't catch - very nice I must say.

The tune for my target Focus can be found here by the way:

http://www.muscle-inc.net/index.php/topic,873.new.html#new

Meanwhile I've spent the night attacking this course with the Corrado, and ended up being incredibly frustrated with it in 4WD form. I couldn't even catch yesterday's time so will have to declare an unspectacular 91.866s. Things picked up though when I tried it in FWD format, although it still loses out to the Focus. Basically, it's still got the stock weight and fat Avon slicks of the 4WD version, but with the FWD powertrain and as much power as I could get. It ended up with 470bhp which sounds ridiculous in a FWD car but it puts it down surprisingly well. In fact it was leading the Focus until the final sweeper but lost about half a second through there - about half of that was due to the car and the other half driver error. I'm considering trying out a lighter weight, lower power version tomorrow (then I'll be gone for the Bank Holiday weekend so that will probably be that).

Still, my times so far (including the Focus time from above):

FocusSport Focus: 89.590
VW Corrado (4WD): 91.866
VW Corrado (FWD): 90.041

[Blooze]

I have been needing to come up with a higher classed FWD car so this challenge finally got me off my butt.  The FocusSport is quite a surprize.  It jumped into the top A Class QR position (182.875) quite easily, even while I, the delapidated Wheel Nut, struggled to remember how to drive an FWD car.  The current setup is 51/78 with the DF set at 60%.

I thought the Leon Supercup would compete but it doesn't come close to the Ford, QR-ing at position #12 with a 184.373.

To be fair, it has been quite a while since I worked on my A Class stable so most of the cars are laboring with old technology and have times that were set a number of months ago.  Even tho delapidated, the ole Wheel Nut has improved just a bit...

I have plans to work up a 2007 Cupra, a WWCivic, a Mugen Civic, and a Golf RS-32, but deep down, I think I would prefer to spend the time and effort on the FocusSport - I think it can be an A Class wheel...

FocusSport	90.830
Leon Supercup	91.218

$

PS: Just in case some of you guys aren't aware of it, you can run the first race of the A Class Pro Series Event and defray some of the expenses incurred while participating in this challenge.  For instance, even tho the Focus is a prize car, my build used $83,000 worth of parts.