Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion

[larryCR]

To be honest I don't really have anything against the Prius (I did consider one a couple of years ago, but was put off by the underwhelming handling and almost complete lack of rear headroom).

That must have been a 1st gen Prius. The 2nd gen has lots of headroom. I'm 5'11" and have 8 inches above my head when sitting in the back.

And even no fashion is a statement of sorts. 

[Hoplee]

To me, the most interesting thing about the Prius:

It has proven to the world, with surprising sales figures, that our battery tech is bad enough that it's actually practical to carry around a whole gasoline engine instead! *smacks forehead

EDIT: You know, for some reason, using two drivetrains to improve efficiency seems counterintuitive, like using crack to get someone off cocaine. 

[Hoplee]

One of my favorite electric car projects, and I think you guys will get a jolt out of it too!

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/community/customerprofiles/mikek.html

[Drift2XL]

No Spiny, we still don't have a diesel 300C. We have only three engines. The 3.5 V6, The 5.8 HEMI, and the 6.1 SRT HEMI. (Hop probably likes the HEMI in bold) 

The thing about using a diesel as a genny engine is that it will only use as much fuel as needed to produce the electric load. I saw one of the cars up for the 10 million dollar X-Prize. It gets 300 MPG with the diesel/elec hybrid system.
It also looks like a big sperm. 

Diesels are pretty much reserved for the tow a boat, horse, camper with your truck crowd. Or the jack your truck 10 ft off the ground crowd. (Looks around for Hop)  

From what I've heard, the Europe spec 2nd gen Prius has a electric only button. It can be engaged for around town driving in full elec mode only. Highway use relies on the gas engine as the elec motor is only about 50 HP.
Some guys in Silicon Valley have a plug in conversion for the Prius. It extends the range to 100 MPG in town with a bigger battery...... Oh the conversion costs around $10,000. 


Hop, the way Toyota does it is wrong. Full size gas engine + small electric is not as efficient as small genny engine + large electric. Not only that, but if you could set a boiler off the exhaust manifold you can generate more electric power with no waste. Like a turbo system only for the battery. BMW has a steam design to augment the drivetrain power (steam turbine on the driveshaft).

I got a great idea for Toyota. Take the small J spec 1.2L engine. Add turbo with a wastegate set at 1-2-psi. then add current hybrid system. Computer controls the wastegate for performance use and opens it up to 7-9 psi. Add the electric motor's 30 HP. Put in Yaris. New age GTI/CRX. Fun car, high gas milage, low insurance, all parts come from existing product minus the turbo. Rake in the profits.

Too bad it takes all that technology to get as much gas milage as an '88 CRX. 

[sk15kev]

I liked the idea of Hydrogen when BMW pushed out those 7 series trials.  It does seem though electricity is still needed to convert the water to Hydrogen and that is at a higher cost to going straight electric.

I believe electric cars will be the future as there is already some sort of infrastructure in place to distribute it.  What we have to hope for is a more renewable source to create the electricity from. Personally I think we should clear out France and Belgium, laying the all available ground space for solar panels .

Whichever way things go it can't be oil or gas based due to the diminishing reserves.  Any new source will have to be able to get an infrastructure to support it, which is why I think electric will win.


-Kev

[Hoplee]

I believe electric cars will be the future ... I think electric will win.

Okay, I have to point out here that we've had electric cars AND gasoline electric hybrids for over one hundred years, and the batteries STILL SUCK! Check out the link below. I'm sure a lot of us have seen these cars before, but, if you haven't, get ready to go 'Back to the Future'!

http://www.hybrid-vehicle.org/hybrid-vehicle-porsche.html



Someone mentioned using steam to capture energy from the exhaust. Abner Doble developed a number of brilliant innovations in constructing and designing the first truly great steam powered car. Howard Hughes once said of the automobile, 'I know them all, and I prefer the Doble'. I posted a link to Jay Leno's Doble below.



http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/video_player.shtml?vid=213453

It's no answer at all to propose electricity as a solution to our transportation needs, because we still need a good way to store that power as potential energy. The only portable and practical options available for storing electricity are various batteries and fossil fuels. The primary non-portable option for storing electricity is...

drum roll...

coal fired power plants! woohoo!

We've got lots of different ways to generate power and lots of ways to use that power to move stuff from A to B, but we don't have many options for storage. That's why, IMHO, the most important issue isn't what motor (or motors) we use, it's how we store, retrieve, and replenish the power to that motor. "YMMV"

[Drift2XL]

The only reason I keep harping on about the hybrid is that is a technology that can be currently tapped to relieve the pressure of foreign oil. It can be (relatively) cheaply built and presents the best alternative right now.

Batteries suck. The tech has been a backburner issue now for decades. Its going to take a quantum leap in tech for an electric battery powered car to meet fuel car ranges. They need to be lighter, hold more charge, and have quicker charge/discharge rates. I feel that it will take tewnty years or so to meet those criteria.

So what does that leave us? Hydrogen fuel cells?  Nice but still ten years off from making them extremely efficient and affordable enough to survive the market. Solar? Right now the best solar panels are only converting about 20% of the available energy from sunlight. There needs to be an increase to about 50 to 65% conversion to really consider solar as a savior.

Wind and water turbines? Too dependant on weather conditions. I can't remeber the last really good windy day I've had at the house. Little breezes, but nothing good and sustainable that would take advantage of a wind turbine.  Then there is the idea of putting a turbine system in the Gulf Stream. I don't know if that is a good idea or not. The theory is solid and can the power potential is real. The size of the system planned by one of the Florida colleges would produce enough electricty to power everything up to Atlanta and as far west as Mississippi. Big power potential. But then there is putting a roadblock on the Gulf Stream and hoping that it doesn't shut down the Atlantic conveyor belt. If that happens, disaster.

The most powerful and lasting renewable is geothermal. We got all this oil drilling experience. Let's put it to good clean usage. Drill a pipe system deep into the crust. Let the heat of the mantle make steam and produce electricity off it. Best shot at a forever power system. Easier to do near spreading fault lines, like Hawaii and Greenland. Greenland already uses it in small doses very effectively.

Of course we can build more hydro-electric dams. Until there is an unknown species pops up and could not adapt to the new ecosystem.

My localities have been shooting themselves in the foot as far as renewable power production. Tax savings on a house with a solar system? No. Proposed wind farm hour to the west? No, it'll spoil the rich peoples view from their cabins that visit three weekends out of the year. I live ten minutes from a hydro-electric dam the the Corp built. It produces power about two maybe three days of the week. For about two hours at a time. But then the Feds still run it too. I guess thats why its still standing.

Even the state of Virginia is in on the screw with you. No matter how much power you can produce at your residence, you cannot do better than a $0 bill. Anything over, and the power company gets it for free and charges others for your power. Nice helping out the people who want to help out the big picture.

Good to have government that's not in corporation's hip pocket That's the real problem there.

But that's a completely different and waaaayy longer rant that I will not go into.

[Spiny Anteater]

Wind and water turbines? Too dependant on weather conditions. I can't remeber the last really good windy day I've had at the house. Little breezes, but nothing good and sustainable that would take advantage of a wind turbine.  Trouble is, when it gets too windy you have to shut them down to avoid damage to the turbine. The large wind turbines cannot operate when the wind gets above a certain speed (I think it's 44 mph)Then there is the idea of putting a turbine system in the Gulf Stream. I don't know if that is a good idea or not. The theory is solid and can the power potential is real. The size of the system planned by one of the Florida colleges would produce enough electricty to power everything up to Atlanta and as far west as Mississippi. Big power potential. But then there is putting a roadblock on the Gulf Stream and hoping that it doesn't shut down the Atlantic conveyor belt. If that happens, disaster. Bad for you maybe, but worse for us - Britain would get a climate similar to Labrador!

The most powerful and lasting renewable is geothermal. We got all this oil drilling experience. Let's put it to good clean usage. Drill a pipe system deep into the crust. Let the heat of the mantle make steam and produce electricity off it. Best shot at a forever power system. Easier to do near spreading fault lines, like Hawaii and Greenland. Greenland already uses it in small doses very effectively. It doesn't have to be near spreading fault lines. If you drill down into a large mass of igneous or old metamorphic rock significant amounts of heat can be produced by the radioactivity of the rock - a good example is Cornwall

Of course we can build more hydro-electric dams. Until there is an unknown species pops up and could not adapt to the new ecosystem.

My localities have been shooting themselves in the foot as far as renewable power production. Tax savings on a house with a solar system? No. Proposed wind farm hour to the west? No, it'll spoil the rich peoples view from their cabins that visit three weekends out of the year. I live ten minutes from a hydro-electric dam the the Corp built. It produces power about two maybe three days of the week. For about two hours at a time. But then the Feds still run it too. I guess thats why its still standing. You think that's bad? The closest turbine to me produces 7.8% of it's capacity and is on course to break even environmentally approximately 40 years after it's design life!And that's by the M25. The one proposed near me will need every road heading there doubling in width to transport the turbines to site.

Good to have government that's not in corporation's hip pocket That's the real problem there. I still think that might be better than what we have here where the government gives huge subsidies to it's preferred power sources. Currently it's wind which is flavour of the month hence the proposal for 200ft turbines about 3 miles from my current abode (and a similar distance from the new house too). Trouble is, we're in one of the sunniest parts of the country here and it's not exactly windy, but subsidies have skewed the economics so an inappropriate technology is preferred over a more appropriate one.

[Hoplee]

Drift, you just got to check out that Daytona Coupe, here's a better link that leads to build pics and run vids.

http://www.ssinc.us/projectdescp.asp

[Drift2XL]

I really need to do some research on this kind of stuff. It's not the fab that would get me. It's the wiring.

And the cost. 

Very cool Hop. I really would love to get invovled in something like that.

Did you find some specs for the Coupe? I saw the 325 KW motor (cool ). But how much voltage, amps, and batteries did he use? And did they post a final weight.

If it was in the vids, I didn't watch. Slow internet, it would have taken three hours for 15 mins. 

[Hoplee]

You know...

I've always wanted to find someone with skills on the fabrication side. I've been working out the details of something like this my entire life, but came to the conclusion that I'd need a small team of guys to pull it off in less than 5 years without taking a year off from work.

My skills:
Project Mgmt (including FMEAs, BOMs, pricing, resource mgmt and vendor mgmt)
Product Design (including die cast, powder metal & machined metal parts/assemblies for EAUs over 1M)
3D Solid Modeling and professional drafting with GD&T & PDM expertise
Rapid Prototyping (including sintered, SLA, cast and machined parts, aluminum, bronze, composites, resins etc)
Combustion engineering (you didn't think I just had a thing for LP did you?)
"and other junk!" lol

I'd be willing to wager that there's enough brainpower hanging around here to fill on the blanks and to take on just about any project, if it got organized the right way...

[Drift2XL]

If I had a shop the way I want it, I could probably rip out a tube frame race chassis in about a month or two of weekend time. Its not the lack of skill or confidence right now its a lack of funds. About 75% of my take home goes to one bill, the house.......but in four years.......FREEDOM!!!

Then its on!

That's why I like this group. I get to converse with guys about as sick as I am. Debating long rod vs. short rod. Wedge or Hemi. Carb vs. Multi Port Inj vs. Direct Inj. You know, the little things that 99% of the world take for granted. Looking for that extra little edge.

In fact I'm on Wiki in another tab trying to wrap my head around fuel cell design. Damn, its been along time since physics class.