Author Topic: Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion  (Read 1790 times)

Hoplee

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Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« on: July 12, 2008, 05:41:29 PM »
THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN SPLIT FROM "THE ONES THAT GOT AWAY" THREAD LOCATED ELSEWHERE IN THE FCT SUB-FORUM -Hop

Electric Power is just Coal in disguise. Now PROPANE on the other hand...

1) PERFECT FOR TEH BOOOOOST! Propane, depending on how you measure it, produces less energy as BTUs than an equivalent unit of gasoline. It burns a little cooler too. Because of its combustion properties, running propane in a gasoline engine "lowers compression". In reality, it has excellent anti-knock properties and less heat. That's why propane allows you to either bump compression to regain any power loss from the conversion, or, requiring no machining of the heads and block, is an ideal fuel for forced induction from a turbo or supercharger.

2) No injectors required: It's already a gas when it reaches the manifold, MUCH easier to mix with air due to it's state, no injectors = no computer needed.

3) Propane doesn't 'go bad'. That means you call the gas company and set up a contract for the year when demand and prices are low. They bring the tank and handle it, and you can now re-fuel the barbecue grill AND the car from the big tank at the end of the driveway.

4) It's actually really CLEAN, seriously. The reason most forklift trucks run Propane is because it burns clean enough to be run INDOORS. Your oil won't even look dirty, partially because there's no 'blow-by' of unburned gasoline down the cylinder walls. This doesn't mean you shouldn't keep changing it, it just means it won't really look dirty, cool!

5) You can find propane friggin anywhere. It won't be a good price if you buy it from a BBQ store, but you'll ALWAYS be able to find it.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 07:42:49 PM by Hoplee »
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Spiny Anteater

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Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2008, 05:25:54 AM »

Electric Power is just Coal in disguise.


Spot on! There are people over here who claim that it's not because "I use electricity from renewable sources". That's rubbish - anyone who get's their electric from the grid is using energy from all types of sources. If you charge up your electric car from the grid then you are merely adding to the network load, which will be topped up from the power source which can be switched on or off most rapidly - namely gas (propane) power stations closely followed by oil and coal.

Nuclear takes an age to alter the output of so is mostly used full time supplying a baseline power supply while renewables are very weather dependant and so require an equivalent availability of spare fossil fuel power in case the supply stops. There is an argument that with a wide enough geographical spread the supply from renewables could be made relatively constant but to the best of my knowledge nobody has yet tested that theory in practice. (It was thought that the Europe-wide power cuts of a couple of years ago were caused by a German over-reliance on wind energy leading to a lack of power when the wind died leading to conventional power stations getting overloaded and tripping off causing a cascade effect across Europe. However, the power cut was later traced to the German power company e.On switching off one of the main supply cables across the River Ems to let a cruise ship past ::))

If you want an electric car to aid the environment, then the best way for you to do that would be to install a solar charging station at home (the size would depend on how long a charging period you could live with). If you are doing this to save money, then I'm afraid that says more about how politics have skewed economics to favour power generation (where the pollution is greater but not at the point of use) over the internal combustion engine.

Personally, I would say the best method for a balance of cost and environmental friendliness is to run an old car into the ground, but ensure it stays well services. I would be willing to put money on there being a greater potential reduction in emissions if all old cars were properly serviced than by making people buy a new car which produces 119g/km rather than 155g/km CO2.

Oh, and back on topic, if I hadn't just spent all my money:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2004-54-Reg-Vauxhall-VX220-Targa-Turbo-247-bhp_W0QQitemZ190225603348QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item190225603348&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318

(Sorry, there's not much V8ness about this one ;))
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larryCR

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Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2008, 06:38:36 AM »
Personally, I would say the best method for a balance of cost and environmental friendliness is to run an old car into the ground, but ensure it stays well services. I would be willing to put money on there being a greater potential reduction in emissions if all old cars were properly serviced than by making people buy a new car which produces 119g/km rather than 155g/km CO2.

There is some interesting reading on buying an old car vs new Prius here: http://www.slate.com/id/2194989/

This is not the same as the decision as buy a new car vs keeping an old one you already have, but it does contain some interesting data points.


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Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2008, 01:21:21 PM »
The electric would be on grid for just enough time to save the money for homemade power. Between a fabbed boiler generator and solar panels It should get enough to power it for short distances.

I'm looking at a small generator engine package to do extended trips. I'm thinking some kind of diesel. The diesel produces way better torque and lends itself to a stationary engine design perfectly. No more than .5 to 1 Liter displacment ought to do it.

With the light weight of the car, it should get somewheres around 100-150 MPG. Depending on the efficiency of the battery system.

Then there is the massive hybrid diesel idea for OTR big rigs I've been working out.  Crawl before walking I guess.

The electric motor is just extremely more efficient than internal combustion. With an extremely efficient engine design, you might be able to capture 15-20% of the total energy released out of the burn. Plus they make almost twice as much torque as the rated HP. And the full rated power is available virtually immediately. A 200 HP EM makes the same 200HP at 100 RPM that it makes at 8000RPM. No peaks and valleys on power production.

Propane is good. But I don't like the rotten egg fart smell out the gas pipe. I really haven't put a full thought into a propane engine. But it sounds like it might be a good source for a generator engine. I know most back up power generators are powered off propane / natural gas due to the systems already in place. But production of NG is on the back side of the reserves. They are finding less than we use everyday. Its just going to get more and more expensive.

But I wonder how high I could run the comp ratio???
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Spiny Anteater

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Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2008, 04:39:25 PM »
Personally, I would say the best method for a balance of cost and environmental friendliness is to run an old car into the ground, but ensure it stays well services. I would be willing to put money on there being a greater potential reduction in emissions if all old cars were properly serviced than by making people buy a new car which produces 119g/km rather than 155g/km CO2.

There is some interesting reading on buying an old car vs new Prius here: http://www.slate.com/id/2194989/

This is not the same as the decision as buy a new car vs keeping an old one you already have, but it does contain some interesting data points.


Interesting yes, but I would question some of the figures used. A couple of years ago Whatcar investigated the difference between the "official" mpg figures and those actually achieved by owners. Most owners reported worse mpg figures, on average by 3.5%. But the Prius came in 15% below the official figures returning 52mpg on average (43.3 mpUSg). I'm not sure what size engines are put in Corollas in the States, but over here the nearest petrol engine to the Prius in terms of performance is the 1.4litre which returns 42.2mpg (corrected to 40.7mpg for real world use). That equates to 33.9miles per US gallon.

With those figures the Prius would be responsible for 607 million BTUs of energy and the Corolla 631 million BTUs. Admittedly that's still higher, but nowhere near the gap suggested in the article. However, if we were to look at the diesel Corolla, the fuel consumption of the closest perfoming car (again a 1.4 litre) is 58.9mpg. As it happens, diesels did very well generally in the "real world vs. official" comparison, with the larger Avensis (next model up) returning marginally better real world consumption than the official figures. I think it depends on what sort of miles you drive. If a significant proportion of your miles are on open roads, a diesel will be much more economical that a hybrid. As the proportion of in-town driving increased, the case for a hybrid strengthens, although even in town economy appears to be little better than a stop-start diesel.

I have to admit that I thought diesel wasn't that popular for cars your side of the Atlantic, which was why I didn't suggest it to Drift. If it is becoming more available, i think Drift could be onto something. I might be reading this wrong, but the big rig idea sounds a lot like the diesel electrics used in trains. ??? I'm not too sure how well the small generator backed engine would work in the Sentra though. It just seems very complicated when it would probably be simpler to use the solar-charged electric idea to power the car for short journeys,and use one of his other cars for longer journeys.

Then again, at the very least it will be interesting to see how it works out. 8)
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larryCR

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Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2008, 05:33:14 PM »
Another data point: My wife and I have had two Priuses. The 2004 model ended up with a 43.7 overall MPG at the end of 21,000 miles. The 2007 is so far at 42.5 with 14,000 miles on the odo. The seasonal efficiency varies from a low of 32 in the cold part of the winter (0 to -20 degrees Fahrenheit, snowy roads, poor battery performance, frozen lubricants, etc.) to 52 in the optimal 75-85 degree days.

Most of these miles are in-city driving. On the highway we typically see 42-45 while travelling at 75 MPH.

And yes, it will be very interesting to see how all this works out.

Hoplee

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Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2008, 07:30:47 PM »
1.0) ...Then there is the massive hybrid diesel idea for OTR big rigs...
1.1) ...The electric motor is just extremely more efficient than internal combustion...
1.2) ...No peaks and valleys on power production...

2.0) ...Propane is good. But I don't like the rotten egg fart smell out the gas pipe... 2.1)...production of NG is on the back side of the reserves. They are finding less than we use everyday. Its just going to get more and more expensive...
2.2)...But I wonder how high I could run the comp ratio???

1.0) The idea of a tractor/rig using a diesel electric hybrid drivetrain is sound, but if we in the US could get our train system out of the toilet it'd be an even better idea. Using trains to move standardized shipping containers between cities would present  efficiency benefits at the micro level of using less fuel per pound of goods shipped. It also has the potential for much larger macro level benefits, such as greatly reducing the cost of road/bridge maintenance. Just driving one loaded 18 wheeler down the road can eat up the asphalt faster than 10 or 20 cars, and I don't think I need to explain why spreading weight out is better for bridges! It MIGHT also help to postpone the inevitable and massive 'gridlock' that we'll eventually bring about by continuing to fill our roads with more and more single occupant traffic. (Sure, we could keep adding lanes, but I'm not sure that a highway 20 lanes wide makes sense. To me it seems like FROGGER's worst nightmare!)

1.1) Batteries aren't. The problem isn't the motor, it's power storage. We've got lots of ways to make and use power, but very few really portable ways to 'keep it on the shelf.'

1.2) Define power...heehee!

2.0) Does your BBQ grill smell like farts? Is there something seriously wrong with it? ;) They add ethenethiol to 'fuel grade' propane in the US as a safety measure to help detect leaks.

2.1) I hear you on this one. We get propane as a byproduct of NG and gasoline production, so it's got supply side issues that aren't going away.

2.2) Answer? Until it blows up! lol seriously though, IIRC, the octane number is 110 or so, depending on what 'spec' the propane you've got is.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 07:34:09 PM by Hoplee »
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Drift2XL

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Re: Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2008, 09:14:31 PM »
I have to admit that I thought diesel wasn't that popular for cars your side of the Atlantic, which was why I didn't suggest it to Drift. If it is becoming more available, i think Drift could be onto something. I might be reading this wrong, but the big rig idea sounds a lot like the diesel electrics used in trains. ??? I'm not too sure how well the small generator backed engine would work in the Sentra though. It just seems very complicated when it would probably be simpler to use the solar-charged electric idea to power the car for short journeys,and use one of his other cars for longer journeys.

Then again, at the very least it will be interesting to see how it works out. 8)

The single reason early 80's Olds 88 diesel.   Total sh!tbox.  The question wasn't if it would breakdown, it was when. Knocking, pinging, rattlin' POS.   In a "luxury" car, that's not going to fly.

Diesels make sick amounts of torque. They just don't rev with the heavier reciprocating parts. That's what makes them a great OTR power source for a real efficient hybrid elec. They just lend themselves to a statioary engine design perfectly. The US would embrace newer diesel technology, but now diesel fuel is almost a dollar a gallon higher than reg gas.

And the real worry (to me and others) is #2 heating oil IS diesel. People in the older houses are normally older persons on a very tight fixed income. Most of those houses have oil heat. 35 years ago a furnace was the only way to have central heat. Then after the heat pumps started to roll out, oil heat was still cheaper by alot. Until about the last 5 or 6 years it was still alot cheaper.

Not now. It would have cost me probably $1000 last winter. And out came the space heaters. Heat pump this year until it gets really cold.

You would think that not having the state and federal road use tax would take about 50 cent a gal of the price. Wrong. Oil companies are raking in the cash off heating oil. We'll see how bad it gets this winter.

1.0) The idea of a tractor/rig using a diesel electric hybrid drivetrain is sound, but if we in the US could get our train system out of the toilet it'd be an even better idea. Using trains to move standardized shipping containers between cities would present  efficiency benefits at the micro level of using less fuel per pound of goods shipped. It also has the potential for much larger macro level benefits, such as greatly reducing the cost of road/bridge maintenance. Just driving one loaded 18 wheeler down the road can eat up the asphalt faster than 10 or 20 cars, and I don't think I need to explain why spreading weight out is better for bridges! It MIGHT also help to postpone the inevitable and massive 'gridlock' that we'll eventually bring about by continuing to fill our roads with more and more single occupant traffic. (Sure, we could keep adding lanes, but I'm not sure that a highway 20 lanes wide makes sense. To me it seems like FROGGER's worst nightmare!)

I'm with you there Hop. The only things I recognize on the rail lines around here are cars and coal. A modern diesel/electric train fully laden MPG is somewhere around 200-400. The problem is union labor costs. On every train there is a team of 6 to 10 people. About 3-6 aren't nessesary because of technology. But union contract says they have to be there. And the average wage for these guys is $20-30 an hour. That's the overhead in rail costs.

1.1) Batteries aren't. The problem isn't the motor, it's power storage. We've got lots of ways to make and use power, but very few really portable ways to 'keep it on the shelf.'

True there. Tesla roadster is an extended version of the Elise chassis. Elise 1900 lbs. Tesla is 3000lbs. Its all battery. About 5000 linked lithum ions, basically laptop batteries. A 1000 lbs of them. But it does do 0-60 in less than 3 secs. There's the full power everywhere.  ;D   A two speed trans helps too.

2.0) Does your BBQ grill smell like farts? Is there something seriously wrong with it? ;) They add ethenethiol to 'fuel grade' propane in the US as a safety measure to help detect leaks.

I drive a forklift. I know what the exhaust smells like. I know propane is an odorless gas and they add the "stink" to it for leak detection. That sulfur smell is the most repugnant smell to the human nose.

I was just making a funny.  ;D

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Hoplee

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Re: Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2008, 09:50:22 PM »
Here's the latest smoke from the electric car campfire. It's hard to find good information about Eestor's tech, but they've impressed some big players with deep pockets, such as Lockheed. Is this finally the answer?

http://media.cleantech.com/2644/zenn-gearing-up-for-eestor-powered-car

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?ch=specialsections&sc=batteries&id=20090&a=

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor


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Hoplee

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Re: Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2008, 12:12:48 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleiner_Perkins_Caufield_%26_Byers

These guys are the money behind Eestor. If even 20% of the wikipedia article is true, these guys have enough money to shame 'Uncle Scrooge'. And, oh yeah, they've got Colin Powell AND Al Gore!  :o
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bimmerlovere39

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Re: Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2008, 12:49:33 AM »
Diesel FTW  ;D

imho, there are three main issues with diesels in the US: Fuel availability, fuel pricing, and public perception. 

Audi has done a good job proving that diesels can be fast with the R10, but it isn't hitting enough people.  Somehow you need to get the message out to the average man.  Maybe its just me, but I don't think the majority of America watches ALMS.  Sadly.  :'(

Diesel stations are not nearly as common as gas stations, and people don't want to fill up at truck stops.  Its a chicken-or-egg thing.  To get more diesels on the road, the fuel needs to be more readily available.  To justify more diesel pumps, you need a consumer base.

Lastly, fuel pricing.  I read an article in a magazine a few months ago about this.  I think it was Motor Trend, but I'm not sure tbh.  I can't find the article online at the moment, but I'm sure its  out there - I just have to find it.  Anyway, (iirc) apparently one of the issues with diesel pricing over here is that we lack the infrastructure to refine bunches more diesel than we already do.  It also seems that we ship excess gasoline to Europe, and they give us extra diesel  :-\.

Emissions regs should be less of an issue with urea injection and the spread of ultra low sulfur diesel in the States, but I think our emissions regs are tougher on diesels than in Europe.  Something about Diesels being allowed to have more particulates than Gas engines in Europe, while the diesels had to have less CO or NOx than gas engines.  I think in the states all engines are held to the same standards.  And then there's California (and its associates) who are intent on being unique with their regs.  IMHO Cali needs to stfu and gtfo and comply with the rest our regs  >:(.  I'd also like to see our emissions regs synched with the EU... same with all the other stuff, too (lighting, pedestrian crash standards, etc). 

Alright, link dump time:

Some diesel reviews http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=36&article_id=6665

Methanol as a fuel: http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/112_0808_technologue/index.html

PS: I hate CAFE standards  :D

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BarbecuePete

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Re: Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2008, 04:26:51 AM »
The situation with Diesels in the US sounds a lot like the E85 (Ethanol) problem over here, you can buy a car that runs on 'environmentally friendly'E85 but.... and its a Biiiig BUT....

There are virtually no E85 filling stations in the UK... I recently read a letter sent into one of the car magazines over here where a woman was oh soo very proud of herself for buying a Ford Focus that ran on E85 so she could say she was being "green" the problem was she then went onto say she had to make a 3 HOUR round trip to fill up with E85  ::)

To me its just stupid and sums up perfectly the "look at the headline not the facts" politics that seem to go on all the time with this issue....
Im sure she (and the environment) would have been much better off buying a regular small engined petrol car she could fill up anywhere or one of VW's new Blu-Motion vehicles, the VW polo Blu-motion can do nearly 70mpg on a combined cycle and produces just 99g/km CO2... and you don't have to drive 3 hours to fill it up!!!
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Re: Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2008, 12:59:06 PM »
The single reason early 80's Olds 88 diesel.   Total sh!tbox.  The question wasn't if it would breakdown, it was when. Knocking, pinging, rattlin' POS.   In a "luxury" car, that's not going to fly.

Diesels make sick amounts of torque. They just don't rev with the heavier reciprocating parts. That's what makes them a great OTR power source for a real efficient hybrid elec. They just lend themselves to a statioary engine design perfectly. The US would embrace newer diesel technology, but now diesel fuel is almost a dollar a gallon higher than reg gas.

And the real worry (to me and others) is #2 heating oil IS diesel. People in the older houses are normally older persons on a very tight fixed income. Most of those houses have oil heat. 35 years ago a furnace was the only way to have central heat. Then after the heat pumps started to roll out, oil heat was still cheaper by alot. Until about the last 5 or 6 years it was still alot cheaper.

Not now. It would have cost me probably $1000 last winter. And out came the space heaters. Heat pump this year until it gets really cold.


For a long time we had a similar issue over here - back in the 80's diesels were extremely slow and very noisy although they did go on forever. With tax on diesel being the same as tax on petrol, that was enough to put most people off. However, in France (and I think in much of continental Europe) the tax on diesel was much less, so the cars were popular despite their shortcomings. As such, many of the French manufacturers put their R&D budget into diesels and things moved on. Turbocharging dove-tailed well with the diesel torque curve, and performance improved so by the late 90's diesels performed as well as a similar petrol car, albeit with a larger engine capacity. With the advent of common-rail injection, power output and torque improved dramatically as we moved into the new miilenium. We are now at the stage where I am actually considering buying a diesel for my next car, not because of the economy, but because of the performance. The march of diesels has spread to Japan (traditionally not great diesel producers) and now most manufacturers produce diesel alternatives. In fact, in the larger executive car segment, diesel may even be more popular than petrol due to the higher torque giving smoother performance. Now, even American manufacturers are selling diesels in large volumes. For me, the classic example is the Chrysler 300C. When it came to Britain 2 1/2 years ago, you could get the 5.8l V8, 3.5 litre V6 or 3litre diesel. That diesel produced similar power to the V6, and only slightly less torque than the V8 (and more than a Ferrari F50!), yet returns 35mpg (UK) on the official figures. Small wonder that the V6 just didn't sell and is now discontinued, with about 90% of 300C's in Britain being the diesel. And yet, at the time of launch the diesel wasn't available in the US - I don't know if this is still the case.

However, there may be a couple of clouds on the diesel horizon. Firstly, most recent diesels were fitted with dual-mass flywheels to increase refinement. Many of these are now failing denting the previous image of diesel reliability.

The second cloud has been alluded to by bimmer. Crude oil only produces a certain proportion of diesel (I think it's about 10% maximum). While this can be increased by cracking, this can only produce an extra 2-3% diesel (and the same applies to petrol). It may not be the availability of oil which kills the diesel goose, but the increase in demand relative to petrol which makes it uneconomic. We;re not there yet, even though the price gap between petrol and diesel is typically about 55p/gallon (~91c/US gallon) as the extra economy of the diesel more than offsets the difference. But, if the gap keeps increasing (it was only about 20p/gallon at the start of the year), that economy gain will be wiped out.

Finally, I'd just like to say that I think Pete is right about people looking at the headline, not the facts. Hybrids can be better than standard cars in towns, but out on the open roads a good diesel will generally be more economic (although i appreciate that a diesel is not necessarily an option in the States). But sadly in this part of the world it does seem as if there are people who buy the car as a fashion accessory (the advertising actually invites you to "join the bandwagon") - how else to explain the Prii multitudes I see on the M25 driving past at 85mph?
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larryCR

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Re: Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2008, 02:00:03 PM »
 ;D What car isn't a fashion statement of some kind?

Except for the odd diesel, a Prius at 85 MPH is probably still one of the most efficient things going. I wouldn't want to sustain that speed for long in ours, though. It gets quite dicey in the presence of crosswinds and turbulence. The Audi is our choice for highway trips. On a good day it will get 25 MPG. (That drops to about 6 MPG on the track.)

Spiny Anteater

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Re: Drift's Headache - Alt Fuel Discussion
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2008, 02:41:30 PM »
It sounds like you're using your car as it's intended - I just wish more people would do the same. I have to admit that after yesterday's post I did wonder if American Prii would be less efficient than British ones due to the lower octane fuel, but your figures suggest similar fuel consumption. (Incidentally, I'm glad to see you using long term fuel consumption figures - the Pruis is notoriously difficult to get an accurate figure on a short-term basis). As a comparitive data point, my 1.4 litre hatchback with 140,000 miles has averaged 43.5 mpg (36.1 US) over the 55,000 miles I've owned it, varying between 39.5mpg/32.8US (winter{~0 degrees C}, short journeys of ~5 miles including about 1 mile of heavy traffic) and 49.8mpg/41.3US (long journeys cruising at 70-75mph). Performance figures are almost identical to the Prius (slightly lower top speed, slightly better acceleration). Handling is much better than the Prius but the economy, which is what we're dealing with here, is worse, although I didn't feel that the gap between mine and the Prius was as great as it was made out to be in the press.

To be honest I don't really have anything against the Prius (I did consider one a couple of years ago, but was put off by the underwhelming handling and almost complete lack of rear headroom). It's more the fact that our politicians have decided that hybrids are an unalloyed "good thing" to the extend that you can drive a 30mpg Lexus 400h into Central London for free but have to pay an £8/day "Congestion Charge" to drive in in a 60+mpg Citroen C1 diesel. As far as I'm concerned, you should be able to drive what you like (although I still feel the 85mph Prius cruisers are hypocrits), but the minute you start foisting your tastes on others you cross a line. Gordon Brown's claim that he wants all cars sold in Britain by 2020 to be electric of hybrids is a joke to me, and shows a complete lack of understanding that what works for one person won't work for another.

And that's my main beef with the Prius set over here. It seems that they aren't content to choose the car for themselves, they want to choose the car for other people too. It makes sense to me to choose a car which is best suited to the task. For my driving (short journeys mixed with 200 mile runs) and style (I'm quite a smooth driver not accelerating hard and only using the brakes lightly) the Prius just didn't work.

And I'm sure that's quite enough from me now. i managed to hijack the thread so badly Hope had to split it, so I'll shut up now ;)

Oh, and I forgot to add: My car is not a fashion statement of any kind! :D
Pleading Guilty to Cone Genocide

Go Random - Trust to Fate :)

GT: Spiny Anteater