Tiny Terror Classic Spec!

[fndrbndr]

I'm working on a spec.  I'm further along than this first post will indicate, but I wanted to be as transparent as possible, once I figured out that I was onto something workable. I like grassroots racing.  I like the close, hard-fought racing that comes about when it's all about conserving momentum.  I like going through three turns side by side because neither of us wants to relent, and managing to do it without contact.  I like having someone right on my rear bumper for two laps, knowing that if I screw up, he'll get my spot. 

The only question (though Dirt disagrees with me on this) is where to put this dream class of mine.  I figure we've about got B-class covered, between the Muscle, Inc. spec and the sockmonkeys.  A-class is taken care of; ALS and LMMS have A-class covered, and it's not really my goal  (or desired flavor) anyway.  D-class has the S^4 spec, and if this spec turns out to be that competitive, both internally and extermally, I'll consider it a huge success.  The one thing we're missing is a spec series for SMALL RWD cars.  It just so happens these are some of my favorites cars in the game, and I'd love to create a place for them.  I started by drafting a list of contenders.  Here are the small RWD cars in D class.  I had to go on the AH for the Jag, but it didn't make the cut.  (BTW, I've got a couple of extras if anyone wants one. Just PM me.)  Anyway, here's the potential list:

Jaguar E51 (Or whatever it's called)
Ferarri Dino 246 GT
Porsche 914/6
1969 Fairlady Z
1969 2000GT
Lancia's RWD car
Mazda Roadster
Lotus Elan

Not all of these will make the cut, but that's OK.  Next up: the restrictions!

[gs shyner]

The Mazda inclusion seems quite "out of time" with the rest of your list.
I know it's a sentimental favorite of yours but if you include it, ya gotta? include similar era vehicles.
What about:
Mercedes 300SL (D-Class) or Ferrari GTO (C-Class), Fairlady Z432R (C-class), Lambo Muira (C-class), Porsche Carrera RS (C-class)?


But I'm just a peon and I like it that way
Geo

[fndrbndr]

Restrictions!

I've been thinking over some real-world specs used for older cars.  SCCA has several classes (some of which are now defunct) devoted to "spec", "limited prep", and "race prep" vehicles.  While a lot of it doesn't translate well to Forza (restrictor plates, governors on engines, etc), but some of it does.  Several of the classes feature a tire restriction, though.  That will work.  So will the SCCA's standard safety requirements.  Most cars in SCCA have to have several safety restrictions, including a roll cage and fire extinguisher.  Translated to Forza, that's full weight reduction.  

I want to preserve the low-hp vibe of the spec miata and other small RWD classes.  I'm tentatively going to plan on something akin to full race prep.  We've already got the full race prep situation nailed down with the weight reduction.  The other question is tires.  Full race prep classes typically allow (if not require) racing slicks.  I know from personal experience with several of these cars that they'll do very well with full-width racing slicks, and frankly, those full-width slicks aren't that large on most of the cars, because they're very old.  

The only other issue is how to make this hold up online.  Since there are no tire or weight reduction restrictions, I'll also include a 200hp maximum, since that will almost force racing slicks.  For the weight, I'll set max weight at 2k lbs.  This should essentially force the spec online, though I might also set the year to pre-1976 to keep out the Renault 5 Turbo, which I already know will also fit.  I won't do that for now, though, for two reasons.  First, there's the Miata.  This car has enough history behind it that I really want to keep it in, even though it's far and away the newest of the cars.  Yes, I like it enough to keep it in.  Also, as I've narrowed down what I want in this spec, I've eliminated a few cars.  The Jag and the Lancia won't fit slicks and WR and stay in (or even close to) C class.  They're also both over 200 hp stock.  I had to pick them up from the AH.  I ended up with some extra Jags, but I got one with a nice paintjob, and it's going to end up in either B or A class.  I'm actually kind of excited about it, and I'm wondering how it will do against my B-class 2000GT.  That's a bit of serendipity for another time, though.  

[fndrbndr]

And to answer the other questions, none of the ones you listed will fit C class with slicks and full WR.  The Miata is partly there to fill out the stable, though I did consider putting it on a "modern" spec with the Solstice, S2000, Sky, MR2, etc.  Basically, the criteria "behind the curtain" is that these cars all start low enough in D to become respectable grip/flowing machines in C class.  I've represented Ferarri, Lotus, Nissan, Toyota, Porsche, and Mazda.  That gives us three Japanese builders and three European ones, each with an iconic car.  I may check to see if the E30 will fit, though I doubt it (I know CSL won't, though).  There's the 5Turbo, but I'd much rather include the Miata than the 5Turbo because of the leaderboard stigma of the car.  The Mercedes SL doesn't fit to me, since (as far as I know) it doesn't really have much of a racing history behind it.  Even if I'm wrong on this, it's definitely not a small sportscar.

[fndrbndr]

The next step is to QR these cars.  I put them on the same spreadsheet as their Open-class counterparts so I could get a feel for how they are both internally and in an open room.  The results were a bit surprising.  Since my 5Turbo is built out to spec (albeit unintentionally), I've noted that on the spreadsheet as well.  My thinking is that if they're close to the 5Turbo, letting it in may be worth the discussion.  I'll break it up into a few posts so there's not a huge block of text, but what follows will be the discussion of each car in depth.  I do, however, want to thank Detrick for his help with the 914/6.  He tuned one and sent it over, and it's a very quick little car, probably quicker than I could have made it on my own.  First, the QR:

Dino-203.473
2000GT-204.195
5Turbo-204.203
Miata-204.438
914/6-204.611
Elan-205.763
Fairlady-206.17

[fndrbndr]

One of the first cars I ran in this spec was the Fairlady Z, since I had already built one for the 150hp semi-pro race will full slicks and WR.  I've run this car in open rooms with some success, and it's part of what gave me the idea for the series.  Anyway, it's a decent little car.  It handles well and carries lots of speed through the corners.  It was basically in the middle of the pack on Tsukuba and Road Atlanta Short, but among the worst on Sebring.  That's what hurt this car in the QR; otherwise, it's not that bad.  It's not the best car, but I've run it in open rooms with decent results, and I've seen others do the same.  It's in, but challenge structures might have to force its use, as it's the basement-dweller for its region.

[DirtDriver]

Now wait, what did I disagree with, again? 

DD

[fndrbndr]

I approached the Lotus Elan with high hopes.  I still think a better tune might make it more competitive.  It was consistently the slowest car out there.  Even among these cars, it has trouble putting the power down.  I might take a look at allowing Sport WR on this car, since race WR puts it at about 1500 lbs.  A little more weight might keep it planted, and the PI would allow for a couple of extra hp.  As it sits, though, in the "default" build, this car isn't very good.  The one place where there's hope for it is Tsukuba, where it at least beat most of the open-class cars, but it has the worst TTC time even there.  This might turn out to be a good car, but it'll need some work.

[fndrbndr]

You made a statement somewhere that the last thought should be what class to put the cars into, with basically everything else coming first.  Admittedly, I thought of everything pretty much at once, but I did want to point out that I thought about the class well before you recommended doing it, if I understood your comments correctly.  However, I also didn't do what you were cautioning people not to do, decide we need/they want a spec for a given class and then go out and make it without regard to the theme.  Hope that made things more clear instead of less clear.

[fndrbndr]

The 914/6 was a car I really wanted in this group.  The theme is classic sportscars, and it doesn't get much sportier or classier than a Porsche.  There's just one problem; everyone else is better at tuning these things than I am.  I asked the guys over at Smokey's (Detrick's garage) for pointers, and they sent over a snazzy little specimen, already painted, tuned, and ready for the track.  They were even kind enough to fit it to my (working) spec.  This car is in the middle of the pack in QR, not counting the freakishly fast Dino.  It is, however, much faster in a real race, where I had some good times racing it with Spiny and some randoms a couple of days ago.  This may be a case of a car that's a better racer than hotlapper.  I never turned in a really top-notch time with it, but it's pretty forgiving.  This may also be a case of someone else's tune not being quite suited to my style, though frankly, I can't think of anything I'd change.  It handles like it's on rails, and does very well on flowing tracks.

[fndrbndr]

The Miata, as Shyner pointed out, is a personal favorite.  I wish there were more old cars that would fit this spec, but I built out a C-class miata just to see whether it would fit in.  It did.  I used a Tonka Toon, rather than my D-class tune.  It handles fine, puts the power down well, etc.  However, it doesn't really dominate.  This is what I was hoping would happen, frankly.  I'm still on the fence about including it, since it jumped out at others as quickly as it jumped out at me.  Also, there's the surprisingly mid-ranged performance of...

[fndrbndr]

The 5Turbo!  This car is supposedly a big ol' bag of leaderboard goodness.  Indeed, it's the only car in which I can break under 1 minute on Tsukuba.  That time and a surprisingly good showing at Sebring Short (it flew through the turns, and none of these cars exactly make up ground in the straights) allowed it to stay atop the QR heap for a while.  It's a classic, made in 1981.  Some give it credit for starting the whole hot hatch phenomenon.  However, it's not really a sportscar.  I think I'll include either this OR the miata (2005 model year, but otherwise fits perfectly), but not both.

[fndrbndr]

My B-Class 2000GT helped make a name for the Tiny Terrors, so I had high expectations for this in C-class.  I used the exact same tune for this C-class version, as the only difference between the two is hp.  Initially, this car was less than a tenth off the 5Turbo.  When I quit hotlapping and started racing, though, a trip to RAS dropped the time enough to surpass it.  These two cars are VERY competitive with each other in theory, but not in practice.  RAS was the Turbo's worst track, and Tsukba its best.  The 2000GT is the other way around.  They're not even close at Sebring, where the Turbo again has an advantage.  These cars are about as different as two high-downforce, high-grip, lightweight, low-hp cars can be, but they're roughly equally effective overall.  Wierd.

[DirtDriver]

You made a statement somewhere that the last thought should be what class to put the cars into, with basically everything else coming first.  Admittedly, I thought of everything pretty much at once, but I did want to point out that I thought about the class well before you recommended doing it, if I understood your comments correctly.  However, I also didn't do what you were cautioning people not to do, decide we need/they want a spec for a given class and then go out and make it without regard to the theme.  Hope that made things more clear instead of less clear.

Uh, yeah...about that...

I honestly don't give a damn how you guys develop your projects. That was advice, not a position statement.  

Looks like you found a sweet spot for your projects...good luck with it.

DD

[fndrbndr]

And now comes the Dino.  This car only gets to 537 PI under this spec, and at 197 hp, adding hp to compensate won't work if I'm serious about taking this series online.  It's also close to 2000lbs at full weight reduction and some very light rims, so that's out, too.  I wasn't very enthusiastic about this car, but figured to give it a whirl anyway, since the other Ferarri wouldn't have room to fit the spec, and I really wanted an Italian car in the mix.  (Lambo and Lancia didn't offer any alternatives, sadly.)  I was more than just a little surprised by this car.  I had heard it was good, but wow.  It dethroned the Renault at Sebring and was close enough at RAS that I feel it was really down to driver error, and not any real superiority on the part of the 2000GT.  I'm not that worried about the 13 missing points right now.  I'm wondering whether this car might be a bit too good.  For now, though, it's in.  Again, time will tell.