Author Topic: Racing vs. Hotlapping  (Read 1859 times)

fndrbndr

  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
    • View Profile
Racing vs. Hotlapping
« on: February 22, 2008, 08:40:15 AM »
This came up in another thread, but I really think this is an interesting discussion, and hopefully by putting it here, we can keep whichever thread it was from getting hijacked.  It's also been covered many times in flame wars over on the .net, but I think we can discuss it civilly.  The general comment from a couple of folks was that they were primarily a hotlapper or primarily a racer, and did one better than the other.  OK, fair enough.  I get way more podiums online than I do high finishes in hotlap challenges, so I guess the evidence points to the fact that I'm one of these folks.  However, I kind of have two views on this mentality.

On one hand, running 25 laps in free run to get one perfect lap is certainly different from running a 25-lap Enduro, even if tires/fuel and other options are set to mirror free run's feel.  Personally, I'm more aggressive when hot lapping, partly because there are fewer implications if I screw up, and partly because the ghost I'm chasing brings out my competitive nature.  I tend to over-drive cars when I hotlap, but I still post better laptimes than in career races.  Why?  It only takes getting it right once.  This has been pointed out lots of other places, and more eloquently than I say it here.

Racing, however, is a different ballgame.  (Not better, worse, or whatever, just different.  And I think this is where the conflicts on .net usually start.)  First, obviously, you're chasing a cumulative time for 25 laps, not a single top time.  I've won many a race where the second- or third-place guy has a faster lap, sometimes by as much as a second.  (In our B-class enduro a couple of weeks ago, the situation was reversed, and Snyder won the race by about 30 seconds or so, but my best lap was best in the room by a couple of tenths.)  So if someone's a full second faster, how in the world did I win?  Often, I (or the other guy, as appropriate) simply ran a better race as a whole, and all my laptimes were pretty close to my top time, where he got one "miracle lap" and three or four very average laps where he lost a line or even totally lost control trying to nail that one apex at 117 mph when you'll get it right far more often at 110 mph (or whatever, the latter obviously being an extreme case). 

That being said, there's significant overlap.  Being the faster driver is definitely an advantage in either pursuit.  As one member pointed out on our boards, being able to put in those really great laptimes means being capable of driving a really fast lap, closer to the edge of the car's abilities.  The original poster (Taleisin, I think?  And apologies if I'm misspelling this, btw) put it a little more eloquently, but that's the long and short of it.  I guess what I'm getting at is, even though hot lapping and racing reward different mindsets, they reward largely the same skillset.  I've become a much better racer since joining up with the Muscle, inc. crowd.  That's partly because I can find an online game that doesn't annoy me to the point of just giving up and running a career race, either through being punted in corners or through just asinine chat.  Practicing putting together four good laps has made me better at putting together four good laps.  Gee, what a shocker.  I've also gotten better at racing in traffic, both in avoiding wrecks and in holding a racing line, which is sometimes different from a hotlapping line.  However, I've also improved from the challenges, which are basically very controlled hotlap contests.  I know they're not competitions, because there are no prizes and we want to foster cooperation, but honestly, I run them essentially the same.  I try to put in the best laptimes I can.  I'm not going to "win" in either case (see the current supercar challenge if you doubt this, lol), but I definitely enjoy it, and I'll improve my skillset while I'm at it.  I'll also probably get a few good online races out of the deal, which is never a bad thing.  Anyway, I guess I'm saying that a lot of people either see hotlapping as a complete judge of racing ability or a totally separate thing from actual racing.  The truth, I think, is somewhere in between.
GT  = Fndrbndr79
Objects in rear view mirror are losing.

DirtDriver

  • Guest
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2008, 08:47:38 AM »
It is an interesting discussion, indeed.

For me, I find that I am limited by skill more than tune. I think it is safe to say that every race I have won it was because I had the stronger car and not the better skill. I consider myself an intermediate level racer.

Hotlapping on the other hand, is a tribulation. I hate it. The most fun I have is when we do online test and tune sessions for the challenges as I find I am always faster and usually never beat my times set in those sessions.

What intrigues me is how a few bumps up or down on one setting can take a half second off my laptime.

Currently, I am trying to take cars with lower PI than the dominant car in a career race and see if I can hang on or beat that car. I try not to build any more of an advantage into the car than the opponent has. I find if I take the same car he has in stock config I can beat him so I take a lesser build. It's the only way I know to "race" offline.

DD

fndrbndr

  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
    • View Profile
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2008, 09:10:55 AM »
Yeah, those are a blast.  I tried to create a room for that the other night.  I even turned off collisions, so everyone would have their own track on which to hotlap.  However, it was an S-class room, and I forgot to make it friends-only.  D'oh!!  I was actually thanked for booting someone.
GT  = Fndrbndr79
Objects in rear view mirror are losing.

bimmerlovere39

  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1775
  • JEi Track Cars
    • View Profile
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2008, 09:12:38 AM »
IMHO, if I'm online, I perfer to actually have other cars to race, not drive through.  It let's me, um... "bump draft" DD...  ;)

Hehe
It is highly likely that the above post was produced with a drippy jowl.

Ske

  • Guest
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2008, 09:16:57 AM »
For me the difference is more about overtaking and dealing with other racers. I can run consistent laps for a long time, but I'm not good enough when it comes to making my moves at the right times... which usually means less podiums but a bunch of fastest lap trophies.

It's frustrating when you run lap after lap on half throttle looking for a way past a slower car, but if full damage is in effect it's risky to pass unless he goes off track. If he doesn't admit defeat and back off, you're going to have a crash... unfortunately it seems that 90% of Forza drivers will NEVER back off, no matter the context.

I will, so I'm confined to the back of the pack. I even find myself pulling over for 10-20 seconds so I can get a clean path for some hotlapping sometimes ;)

fndrbndr

  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
    • View Profile
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2008, 09:27:55 AM »
Yeah, I run limited damage in my rooms, partly because of that.  I don't want to cripple every car on the track in turn 1, but I want to punish the guys who consider full throttle ramming speed.  I always announce, when new people come in, that damage and collisions are on, so be careful (unless they're not).  Overtaking just takes practice.  I try to send invites to everyone if I'm putting together an online race.  However, in your case, time zones tend to be a limiting factor (somewhere in Northern Europe, I believe?).  Still, I'll send an invite if I see you on.
GT  = Fndrbndr79
Objects in rear view mirror are losing.

Placard Rat

  • Guest
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2008, 12:14:16 PM »
For me the difference is more about overtaking and dealing with other racers. I can run consistent laps for a long time, but I'm not good enough when it comes to making my moves at the right times...

I am very much the same, the vast majority of my online wins and podiums have come from me running consistent laps whilst others get tangled up in accidents or push too hard. Often I'll reach a point when I've cruised up to the back bumper of someone and can't find a clean pass so I just settle in behind and hope he falls off. A major part of my reluctance to force the issue is that I tend to race without a mic and don't want to reinforce the stigma that mic-less drivers cannot race cleanly, this makes me hang back unless I'm absolutely sure of a clean pass and has cost me from winning on a few occasions.

Offline racing is a very different kettle of fish, the AI drivers are very predictable so you know in advance the corners where you can make moves stick and the corners where you have no choice but backing off. For me this has turned some of the career races into a cross between a hot lap session and a waiting game, in traffic I'll wait for the corner I know I can nail the AI on and out of traffic I switch to trying to run consistantly quick laps. This technique has netted me reasonable success on the endurance races, particularly at the A-Class Silverstone and R3 Nurburgring races.

I find both on and offline racing enjoyable for different reasons. Online it is the unpredictability of the other drivers that takes the game to a much closer representation of real racing, offline it is to test my concentration for extended periods and to try and slip into the 'zone' (the state you get into to where you aren't thinking about your line or your breaking points but rather you start running instinctively, man and (virtual) machine as one).

I wouldn't say I enjoy hot lapping but I do find it compelling. I think this comes from my days in Grand Prix 4 on the PC where I would spend hours lapping Silverstone constantly seeking a faster time. I must have put in over a thousand laps just on that track in that game and know that I could go through another thousand trying to better myself. Unfortunately I can't put that same kind of effort into Forza, I don't think anyone can, so I limit my hot lap sessions to a few dozen laps before I move onto the next track. Maybe when I've set a time for each class/track I'll focus more intently on a single car on a single track (the R1 Bentley at Silverstone is a strong candidate) but that is still a ways off yet.

Rat


Spiny Anteater

  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 2044
    • View Profile
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2008, 02:09:38 PM »
A bit like Ske, I would say my weakest point is dealing with traffic. Personally, I find that my highest positions on the leaderboards have come from those Career races where I've been able to get out in front and set consistent fast laps (think Saleen in R2 or the factory spec races). That consistency is less in evidence in hotlap times, and I think that shows in mine as one of my strenghts driving-wise is my consistency.

Now, I know that should translate into a good set of results in online racing (probably the most enjoyable bit for me when you are racing with a good group such as this - shame you're mostly in the States). But, I'm too tentative in traffic. I really do not want to take anybody out, and maybe back off a bit too much at times. Other times, I just get it spectacularly wrong and take out some poor innocent ::), but I feel good in the knowledge that I'm more sinned against than sinning.

And I think that's the crux of the matter. A fast racer will always be a fast hotlapper. A fast hotlapper will usually be a fast racer. Racing requires extra skills, particularly in passing and 'traffic management' and is not just about speed.
Pleading Guilty to Cone Genocide

Go Random - Trust to Fate :)

GT: Spiny Anteater

gs shyner

  • Guest
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2008, 02:35:57 PM »
I'll never be a hotlapper. Just not fast enough.  I'm resigned to that and I tend to feel that if I'm within 1-2 seconds of the fast guys on this site them I'm pretty much doing quite well.
I just suck in traffic.  No patience or I have to yell at myself to CHILL.  I wanna dive inside and take that position which usually
just leaves me braking late and shooting past the line or just bouncing off someone.

I try very dilligently to BEHAVE when online but sometimes my competitiveness gets the better of me and I make a fool of myself.
I'm trying to get better.

Fit4aking

  • Global Moderator
  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1875
  • Spanky's Star Employee
    • View Profile
    • Benchmark Motors
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2008, 03:52:18 PM »
I've worked more at becoming a good racer.  I like hotlapping but I can always go faster when I'm in good competition.  Have no idea why. 

When I find that I'm faster than someone in front of me I'll stay as close to them as humanly possible.  I'll back off entering a braking zone but you'd better believe if I'm faster I'm IN your rearview.  Most times the opponent will make a mistake and I'll cruise by.  If not than its gonna be a drag race to the line.  I used to hang back and hotlap but you don't get money for the fastest lap so I stopped that really quick.
Go sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

feuerdog

  • Engineer
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
    • View Profile
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2008, 04:59:32 PM »
I spend more of my time playing in Testing than I do in any other aspect of the game.  Some my best and fastest hotlaps have been wasted while doing extensive test and tune sessions.  It doesn't bother me though, because even though a faster time is what i'm after, it's not for the direct purpose of competition with  others.  I'm merely racing against my previous efforts, whether its driving, tuning, or building.

For me the true test of a "driver" requires only three things.  A course, a car, and a driver.  My goal is to be a best driver I can be(for myself) with a given car, on a given course.
My current favorite form of motorsport is "Time Attack", it's very popular in Japan, and has been for a long time.  Thats the kind of driving I enjoy most.

I don't consider myself a "racer" though.  A racer is someone who competes with other drivers on the same course.  Yeah I like racing against time, but racing against others drivers is a whole different kind of racing, a different kind of skill is required.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good close race with other good drivers, but it's more about the comradeship, esprit d'corps, and brotherhood of driving than it is about being the best racer.
The other day I raced with Bimmer.  It was alot of fun, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, but it was difficult for me to race cleanly because racing with others is just not something i'm fully comfortable with.

Those of you who have raced with me hopefully recognize me as a "clean" racer, and if so, that is very important to me.  I'm more passive when I race with others.

Hotlapping is the no holds barred adrenaline rush for me.

Hi, my name is feuerdog, and i'm a hotlapper, even if my times don't reflect it.


Drift2XL

  • Engineer
  • *****
  • Posts: 779
  • Gtag: EXOR Metal burn
    • View Profile
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2008, 05:32:25 PM »
I can line up with Feuer on this topic. I am a Hotlapper. But I have my reasons.

I'm not blessed with high speed internet. No ethernet connection = no XBox Live. The AI is a joke at this point. So the only challenge to my driving is myself and those who participate in the challenges here.

There are benefits to being a hotlapper.
The biggest is finding the best line through out the track. Chasing your ghost helps immensely (until the glitch hits after 15-20 laps). There are just numerous times I have picked up speed due to hot lapping.

As well as getting to know the car very well. It takes many laps to get to know the car and what I can take advantage of. My best times come after ten laps with a new car.

The bright side : DSL is number 3 on the priorities list. Simply because of you guys here. If I wasn't apart of this site / FM2 community I doubt it would make it to ten. Problem is #1 and 2 are rather expensive and will take some time to complete. Not to mention that they are needs not wants. Needs come first, wants can wait.
There are only three true sports
Auto Racing, Bull Fighting, and Mountain Climbing.
Everything else are children's games that men play
                                               -Hemingway

Detrick

  • Engineer
  • *****
  • Posts: 549
    • View Profile
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2008, 06:02:05 PM »
For me, the staying power of this game lies within the online races.  I love the unpredictable nature of an online race.  You just can't get that with the AI.  Where else will #1 and #2 crash each other while fighting for position on the last lap only to give #3 the victory?  Where else can you witness someone destroy themselves at 100 MPH by clipping a wall, going airborne (as high as you can get in this game) and having the racer in the position directly behind drive right under Mr. Airborne thus clearing the wreck without even hitting the brake or losing a tenth?  Where else can you witness ...or be involved ....in an multiple car pileup that started because the room collectively forgot they were running Road Atlanta Short ....not Long?

The other aspects of the game are fun without doubt but they are a tool I use to improve myself and my cars for some online races.


SIDENOTE
I won't do a race online if the kids are up running around or someone is on the computer because bad things happen then......(either the lag kills the room or I end up wiping another racer out because my 8-year old walked in front of the TV as I enter Turn 5)......soooooo, if I ignore an invite to your online race it's for the reasons I just stated ....I'm not trying to be rude or anything.


"...and Detrick is a weenie who can't handle real racing..." - fndrbndr

"My better is better than your better."

fndrbndr

  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
    • View Profile
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2008, 08:43:08 PM »
I never get upset about ignored invites.  I just send 'em.  Whether you come or not is totally up to you.  You might be working on your D-class hotlapper while I'm running an S-class room full of cars from the current challenge.  You might not have time for a full race.  For that fact, you might have an 8 year old running amok.  There's more to life than a video game, and one of the things I like about this site is that everyone seems to have a pretty good perspective about it.

As far as the random aspect of online racing, yeah, that's awesome.  I love it, and as long as I don't get in a room full of kids who just crash each other, I prefer online racing to any other aspect.  However, the hot lap challenges on this site definitely help me hone my skills, and I do enjoy the time attack aspect of this site.
GT  = Fndrbndr79
Objects in rear view mirror are losing.

Snyder005

  • Guest
Re: Racing vs. Hotlapping
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2008, 09:27:56 PM »
I enjoy running online, but i don't have xbox gold nor an internet connection where i usually have the x360, so i don't get on much, and when i do i need to find a 48 hour trial code (which i ran out of).  So hotlapping is all i got right now.  And running against the brainless AI. 

I actually found it fun to chase the career races leaderboard, as it puts more of a challenge into the race to run fast and consistent (same goes for Exhibition races).  I grabbed a #2 spot in both the A-Class exhibition and the A-Class Regional, both at Road Atlanta, and nabbed the World Record for the Profesional Series A-Class Road Atlanta race.  But right now i'm focused on finishing my Hot Lapping.