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Author Topic: A-Class 'Outlaws'  (Read 2050 times)

Hoplee

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A-Class 'Outlaws'
« on: December 09, 2007, 06:44:34 PM »
This topic is intended as an open dialogue regarding the latest of my muscle car builds, what I informally call "The Outlaws". After learning to tame the beast that is the 427 Cobra in A-Class on street tires, I started to become interested in applying the formulas to other old cars. I have to mention here that I'm intentionally avoiding the 67 Stingray and the 69 Charger because I think we've all seen enough of them, both on the leaderboards and in online racing.

The first to receive the treatment was the ZR-1 Corvette, long one of my favorites. Ever since I saw an official pace car in black and silver, parked next to my little league ball field, I've been entranced by the shapes and the forms of this body style corvette. It didn't really gain much traction here until we tried to run all the muscle cars at a 6.3 speed rating and the advantage of the ZR-1's in game aerodynamics became apparent. It's also my favorite way around Mugello in a muscle car, a track for which I favor a LOT of grip.

A850 ZR-1
630hp/586 lb-ft
2451 lbs
grip: 1.00g/.97g
upgrades:
Street Yokohama 215/45R19
LS7
Racing Exhaust, Intake, Fuel, Ignition, Block
FORZA rear wing

more to follow... ;)

« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 07:04:18 PM by Hoplee »
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bimmerlovere39

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Re: Muscle Inc. A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2007, 06:58:38 PM »
Well... they aren't really rockets... they do turn.  Well, I wish ya luck... I'm up to my eyeballs in projects already, but these things can ocasionally be fun.

And they do take some skill... So long as TCS isn't involved!
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Hoplee

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Re: Muscle Inc. A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2007, 07:03:53 PM »
I'm thinking that I can make TCS redundant by adjusting gear ratios.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 07:22:33 PM by Hoplee »
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Hoplee

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Re: A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2007, 07:19:20 PM »


The Trans Am was the next to receive the treatment. So far I've put together a total of 4 upgrade paths. They run the gamut from a full on grip build to a fire breathing turbocharged LS7. The most interesting thing I learned was that, at least in A-Class, you can get the most grip out of a 455 build, an engine 200lbs heavier than the LS7 and about 230 lbs heavier than the C5R. The second most interesting thing I learned is that the FORZA rear wing has almost zero effect on grip benchmarks for this car. I forgot to write down my wheel style, but I'm sure at least two of them are American Racing Torque Thrusts. ::)


Trans Am Upgrade Paths PI A850

v1.0 'Monster LS7'
987hp/865lb-ft
2583lbs
grip: 1.01g/.97g
Sport Toyo 215/50R17
LS7 max upgrades
FORZA Rear Wing
Full Race Platform and Handling

v2.0 'C5R 427'
620 hp/531 lb-ft
2587lbs
grip: 1.02g/.98g
Sport Toyo 225/40R18
C5R 427
FORZA Rear Wing
Full Race Platform and Handling

v3.0 'Racings Slicks & LS7'
531 hp/494 lb-ft
3139lbs
grip: 1.06g/1.03g
Race Avon 235/35R19
LS7
Racing Exhaust
FORZA Rear Wing
Full Race Platform and Handling

v4.0 'Racing Slicks & 455 S.D.'
433 hp/553 lb-ft
2787lbs
grip: 1.10g/1.07g
Race Avon MAX WIDTHS-R19
Race Intake
Race Exhaust
Race Ignition
Race Block
FORZA Rear Wing
Full Race Platform and Handling
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 09:47:59 AM by Hoplee »
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bimmerlovere39

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Re: A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2007, 08:28:46 PM »
I've currently got C5R 427 and full grip 455 builds... I'm really interested to see how the Trans Am turns out
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Hoplee

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Re: A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2007, 10:28:41 PM »
right now it's around #250ish on the hotlap board for Road America 8)
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bimmerlovere39

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Re: A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2007, 10:29:51 PM »
Quote from: Hoplee on December 09, 2007, 10:28:41 PM
right now it's around #250ish on the hotlap board for Road America 8)

Dang!  Nice drivin!
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TheJohnNewton

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Re: A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2007, 12:31:58 AM »
Quote from: Hoplee on December 09, 2007, 10:28:41 PM
right now it's around #250ish on the hotlap board for Road America 8)

Which version did you use for the RA hotlap?  BTW, I was running a 427 with you online today when you passed me on the long straight in the ZR-1 rocket of yours.
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Hoplee

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Re: A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2007, 08:34:13 AM »
I don't really think of the ZR-1 as a 'missile' or 'rocket' car since it's nowhere near maxxing out it's engine and it's not on stock rubber. It's only running 650hp or so but pulls like it has a few more. In our races last night, the ZR-1 seemed to be pulling away from the field running about a 2:11.xxx or so. It's strong out of the hole for what it is, and I've even kept up with Buford's Cobra in a drag race out of a corner. The top end is fairly nice as well for such an old car.

I was pleased with the performance but was afraid to keep running the same car on the same track when it had already won so I switched to what I had thought would be a slower choice, the v1.0 'Monster LS7' T/A. By the end of the race, and to my surprise, it was running a low 2:09.xxx with the potential to go faster. The funny thing about the T/A is that it's really not that much heavier than the ZR-1 but it's running much better rubber, with its sport level Toyos. Basically, it's got better tires, comparable weight, and over 300 more hp. W O W !
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 08:35:52 AM by Hoplee »
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Hoplee

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Re: A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2007, 01:40:59 PM »
I usually don't worry about assists much. I can race without them and have, but I have to pay a lot more attention to car setup and I need to stay in the same car more to pull it off. I'm already getting a pretty obvious message that the 'Outlaws' are going to bring some criticism down on me as it's easy to say I couldn't do it without TCS.

Well, I'd like to 'nip that one in the bud'.

I honestly believe that with proper gearing and setup, the cars will be significantly faster without TCS or STM. I guess we'll find out!

After I turn TCS off, I'll be taking a look at gearing on the 'Monster LS7' T/A and trying to come up with a combination that keeps the rear end from passing the front every time I breath on the accelerator. I know that some of you here spend much more time on gear selection than I do, so I'd appreciate any tips, tricks and advice I can get.

My first step will be to stretch out first gear until I can launch very consistently from a standing start. When driving the A-Class Stingray that ACC Porsche H6 gave me (same build he used to post top tens on a number of tracks like the number 4 time currently on Road Atlanta), I've got to be very careful with the throttle until I get into 4rth gear, after which I can hammer all I like on it. I know he's using ABS and TCS and he's got the diffs turned way down. I won't be using TCS so lifting his settings isn't going to work.

Here's my question:

When tuning the gearbox for 'poor man's traction control' instead of maximum power available, what should I set my diffs for?

« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 01:43:27 PM by Hoplee »
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Fit4aking

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Re: A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2007, 01:55:35 PM »
All of my diffs start off at a default 50/50.  Accell will range anywhere from there down to 30.  On the Suzuka challenge I had my GTO at 30% to accelerate off of the hairpin.  I also like to have a bit of off throttle oversteer to encourage the rear to come around entering a turn.  Therefore I set my decel diff up to 55-70%.  Its still controlabe but often I need to keep some type of throttle input to keep the diff from lockin up.

I think its worth a shot at the factory 4 speeds in SS posts.  The longer gears really limit wheelspin and if you have enough torque you can pull a higher gear out of the hole.  Then you can adjust 5th and 6th to take advantage of top end horsepower.  My TVR really came to life after applyin the gears to it.  However I did have to adjust in 3rd gear a smidge.

Not that I'm a trans expert or a diff guru but I've fixed a coupel of my cars characteristics by adjusting how and when the power is applied to the tires rather than adjusting how the tires contact the ground.  Hope it helps.
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bimmerlovere39

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Re: A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2007, 04:24:04 PM »
Quote from: Hoplee on December 10, 2007, 01:40:59 PM
When tuning the gearbox for 'poor man's traction control' instead of maximum power available, what should I set my diffs for?

I'd think the two are seperate - see my 100/100 Cobra!  I've run everything from ~25% to the previously mentioned 100% - it really does vary, although I'd try out the really high (80-95%) decel settings.
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Hoplee

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Re: A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2007, 09:15:37 AM »
After last night, my impression is that the only way to keep 987hp on the road below 100mph is with throttle control. Gearing works fine until about 4,000rpm, at which point the engine just lights up the meats no matter what ratio you've dialed in.

Just using the trans to substitute for TCS MIGHT still work if I switch to manual shifting. I reckon that's my next move.
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TheJohnNewton

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Re: A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2007, 08:47:42 PM »
I never really used tcs much so one day doing hotlaps, on Nissan of all places, I turned it on just to see what the big advantage was all about and I absolutely hated it.  I was way slower with it.  It felt like the car had a mind of its own.  I guess once you get used to something it's hard to change.  On the other hand I also used to be an auto trans guy.  Saved me from the wipe even.  But one day when I couldn't get my car to stay in my gear of choice up the hill at RA I switched to manual.  Took me about a day to get comfortable with it but now it's second nature.  I do need more practice in the under tired style cars.  Following Hoplee last weekend in one of his beasts I thought he had turned into a pro drift champion.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 08:49:25 PM by TheJohnNewton »
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Spiny Anteater

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Re: A-Class 'Outlaws'
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2007, 05:24:30 AM »
Just got to say Hop that thing is fast at Road Atlanta judging by your performance last night. There was me going along the straight in the Cobra and I could see this Trans Am closing up then shooting by. Hop said it was one of the outlaws - judging by the speed he was getting out of that thing I think he must have been in  the "Monster" version. And I would say that any earlier control problems have been ironed out as Hop seemed pretty consistent too :)
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