Author Topic: Forzacating with a Lame Duck  (Read 623 times)

Blooze

  • Administrator
  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • ...It's never too early to Panic.
    • View Profile
Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« on: December 21, 2011, 10:51:01 AM »
The purpose of this thread is to document and discuss the various activities I mess with whilst waiting for all the footwear to hit the Pi deck. 

Because a leaderboard wipe is a possibility, chasing down lap times and clearing TLF tracks is a potential monumental waste of time, so we'll steer clear of that activity.  That pretty much leaves career completion and leveling up, both Driver and Affinity levels, as things that can be accomplished whose results will persist.  The Affinity Levels appears to be an infinite hole in which one can toss energy.  Actually getting all manufacturers to level 50 would be a daunting task.  Reality sets in and puts some limits on it though - there's a lot of cars you just don't want to drive that much.  Can you imagine driving the Hummer to Level 50...   :o  gives me the heebie jeebies just thinking of it.

However, the Driver Level thing is quite reachable so its viability as a Lame Duck activity will diminish the longer it takes the Turn 10 boys to start pitchin' sneakers and boots and such.

Here's the first car I have actually put some time into lame ducking.  The Alpha Romeo Brera.  I really like the way this car looks.  The sculptured hood and quarter panels, the triple headlight and taillight arrangements, all contribute to the low, wide look of the car.  Its center of gravity must be exceptional for the hatchback genre.



But, Forza's implementation of the car does have its issues.  The power is not that bad, but the gearing makes it so it is pretty hard to take advantage of what power there is.  First gear is quite strong, short in duration.  And second is a long ways away from first.  Up shifting bogs even when shifting at the rev limiter, which is well inside of the red line.  Likewise, a quick panic ridden down shift into first will get you a spun bearing.  Tho not as bad, third and fourth are pretty long winded as well.  The upshot of all that is that fifth and sixth are of no use at all.

Because of the bad arrangement, the P Transmission is not a useful part to buy.  All it would do is move the poor shift ranges up or down along the power range.  You can't afford it anyway.  The stock Pi is 347, and the P Tranny costs 9.

I asked Fugger if he wanted to take a shot at upgrading the Brera but he passed - said there was nothing he could do for it.  So I messed with it some - what you gonna do with 3 Pi?  Surely not get into Poopy List trouble, I think.  My first shot was to buy some Holeshot wheels, the R Diff and S Driveshaft.  That reduced the weight by 32 lbs but had little affect on the car's performane.  I drove it around for a little while and it behaved pretty well, except for understeer that plagued quick getaways and coasting through the back of the turn.  After a couple races I decided to go see if I could get a bit more inventive with my 3 little Pi's and do something about the understeer.

I found that if I traded in the wheels and the driveshaft I could get the R Suspension and ARBs and that was just fine with me.  The car was a bit heavier, but another 20 lbs on a 3600 lb car is not all that monumental anyways.

Here's how the setup looks now...

2009 Alfa Romeo Brera - Pi 350

Hp:256
Tq:237
Wt:3591
QR:232.277

Parts
[
Handling
RSuspension & ARB
Drivetrain
RDifferential
Wheels
Tires:
K235/R19; 235/R19
Rims:
Stock

Gearsna

Setup
Wt Bias - SWR
50.00%
44.00%
Parameter     Front      Rear   
Tires
28.5
29.0
Camber
-1.0
-0.8
Toe
0.1
0.1
Caster
5.0
ARB (50/36)
13.06
13.06
Springs
790
790
Height
5.7
6.1
Rebound
7.7
7.6
Bump
3.8
4.1
Aero
0
0
Brakes
50
100
Front Diff
26
0
Rear Diff
32
26
Torque
57


Once I got that all dialed in I was able to knock about a second each off of my Road Atlanta S. and Sebring Short times.  Now I can full throttle the thing from behind the Apex right on through and out without having to lift, or "ease off", to stay on the road.  It doesn't push when backing off the throttle without a bunch brake to setup the turn in.

Here's the Brera's D WCHLC time, and a couple from the 'Cheeze account for comparison...
Car
  D 
Time
Blooze46
-
2009 Alpha Romeo Brera
19:21.711
GICheeze
-
1957 Ford Thunderbird
19:07.477
1965 Ford Mustang GT Coupe
19:10.498

I think the AWD cars got more than just a healthy kick in the nuts for Version 4.  I have the Brera in Fm3 and it was one of my better cars in class.

An interesting little bit here...  That Rossi guy is driving a Brera in the World Champioship too, only his has a Pi of 346.  ??  Maybe I'm glad Fugger didn't mess with mine.

Next up is the Starion...

;D $
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 01:15:34 PM by Blooze »
GTs: Blooze46 / GICheeze

Proud Owner: Perfect Drift = 0 Badge

Spiny Anteater

  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 2044
    • View Profile
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2011, 01:14:13 PM »
I'll be interested to see how you get on with that Starion. I did one in B Class, and while it's fairly good (certainly not one of those I instantly regret getting into if I race it online), it's not a storming drive. I think maybe my middle-of-the-road approach to this car hasn't helped, but I was after a good all-rounder with it. And if Forza still had the online series thing it had in Fm2 I think it would be very good as it does well everywhere... it's just that it doesn't really excel anywhere. More than possibly any other car I've done, this one really does bring to mind the saying "Jack of all trades, but master of none".

Incidentally, seeing the T-Bird in there reminds me I've been meaning to stick mine up in Spiny's garage (which has accumulated a lot of dust while I've been going through career) as it's one of my favourite cars so far. I've not seen any others around in B Class yet, but it seems to be able to keep up with Civics in most places - might be one of those unsung heroes. :)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 01:16:11 PM by Spiny Anteater »
Pleading Guilty to Cone Genocide

Go Random - Trust to Fate :)

GT: Spiny Anteater

Blooze

  • Administrator
  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • ...It's never too early to Panic.
    • View Profile
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2011, 05:46:05 AM »
Automated Parts List Test

This is the Parts list for the Starion.  Except for the Cam and K Tyre Compound, the Configuration is designed by Fugger, only he didn't have the S Cam and he did use S Compound tyres.  More on that later...

The list below was generated automagically in my tuning sheet, reading from the parts configuration section that has always been there.  The only caveat is that there is a bunch of white space, empty lines, in the text (white space is ignored within the table tags when the text is compiled).  It's not a big deal to BS them out tho...  Cool, huh?

Parts
Engine
SAir Filter
SFuel System
SIgnition
SExhaust
SCamshaft
SFlywheel
Handling
SBrakes
SChasis & Roll Cage
SWeight Reduction
Drivetrain
SClutch
SDriveshaft
RDifferential
Wheels
Tires:
K235/R16; 265/R16
Rims:
American Torque Thrust

;D
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 07:05:30 AM by Blooze »
GTs: Blooze46 / GICheeze

Proud Owner: Perfect Drift = 0 Badge

Blooze

  • Administrator
  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • ...It's never too early to Panic.
    • View Profile
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2011, 08:32:00 AM »




Car
  D 
Time
Blooze46
-
1988 Mitsubishi Starion ESI-R
19:07.225
2009 Alpha Romeo Brera
19:21.711
GICheeze
-
1957 Ford Thunderbird
19:07.477
1965 Ford Mustang GT Coupe
19:10.498
GTs: Blooze46 / GICheeze

Proud Owner: Perfect Drift = 0 Badge

Fit4aking

  • Global Moderator
  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1875
  • Spanky's Star Employee
    • View Profile
    • Benchmark Motors
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2011, 09:09:26 AM »
I'll have to check my Starion build against yours to see what is different.  I suspect its the cams but with that comes other differences I'm sure.  Good job beating the T-bird time.  From what I understand that is a fast car.
Go sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

Blooze

  • Administrator
  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • ...It's never too early to Panic.
    • View Profile
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2011, 06:02:14 AM »
As it turns out, that is the only difference between the Fugger build and mine - I swapped the S Tire compound for the S Cam.  There's an old saw named "Coals to Newcastle" that came into play and I am sure that Fugger isn't taking it into account.  To Forzatize the saw one could say, "why spend Pi adding grip when you already have more grip than any car in the class and most of the next and you really need more power..."  or something like that.  And that was the case here.

With the S Tires, the Starion's G@120 was 0.90, which is two points higher than my best C class car, the Eclipse GSX which weighs in at 0.88.  And it's pretty damned grippy, if I do say so myself, and I do.  On the Cheeze side, I think the AMX is still top dawg at 0.82.  So, 0.90 is quite a bit for a D class car.

I drove the car as Fugger built it, with only the tires needing adjustment in just one race on Tsukuba.  It was nice being able to drive the car anywhere I wanted with my foot planted on the floor - if it would just go.  I decided to check into swapping the S Compound out - how bad would it hurt me, how much power could I gain?

One other characteristic of the Starion is that it is one Torquey little outfit - its Tq/Hp ratio was 1.239 and it had a tendency to torque out the rear wheels when pulling low rpms in 2nd or 3rd, so I figgered I'd check out the cam - see if I could buy that for my Street tires.  Trading in the Street tires would get me 29 Pi back.  I check the cam, it only cost 26 Pi.  Hot damn!  I looked a little further and it looked like I could get a tunable suspension for the change.  It was a no brainer as far as I was concerned.  The suspension would get back some of the grip I was giving up with the downgraded tire compound.

Well, it turns out that without the street tire compound, the cam cost more Pi - 29 to be exact.  That really pissed me off.  I went ahead with the deal because the sitting on an S Suspension be default and it wasn't that bad to begin with.  But why the change?

If nothing else, it seems like one could do more damage with the tires and the cam and it should have been pricier with than without.  But even more significant is the fact that it changed at all, and the changing program may be part of the whole Pi issue.

The game is obviously making some qualitative decisions and making adjustments to stay within certain parameters.  Boy, I bet those algorythms are a spooky to look at bunch.  So, their whole Pi priority system is in need of adjustment.  They are trying to shape performance with a bunch of qualitative algorythms that are buried in a rather intense, I imagin, program.  With 580 cars in play I doubt there is very much "by hand" tweaking going on.

So, back to the Starion.  The swap, cam for tires, netted a 10% increase in Hp and a higher rpm power range.  The hurt to the G@120 value was only in the 5% range, down to 0.85 which was still 0.03 points better than any other D car in my garage, and actually quite high for the next class as well.  To top it off - the Tsukuba time was improved by 0.224 seconds - my thoughts were that it would be hurt by the loss in grip, but the increase in power trumped the grip in this case.

So what have you heard?  I don't think there is a quick fix for the Pi problem.  I think it runs deep and permeates the entire garage, not just the Muscle cars...  Look at the decisions the program is making concerning the Pi cost of a Race Transmission for the Hondas.

And if they make the wholesale change required to set things a-right, can they leave the leaderboard in place?  Will any of the times set previously with any car be relevent?

I bet they're tearing at their hair up there in the Turn 10 offices.  Yes sir, not a happy time up there...

;D $

I continue on with the Mitsubishis - chasing down their factory driver award.  I'm just about to clear the 25 level and the process should speed up from there.  I shouldn't need too many more cars, the Starion to C, the Eclipse to B and maybe an A Classed Evo VIII MR should to it...
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 11:09:11 PM by Blooze »
GTs: Blooze46 / GICheeze

Proud Owner: Perfect Drift = 0 Badge

Spiny Anteater

  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 2044
    • View Profile
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2011, 04:18:23 AM »
Good work with that Starion, from the looks of the times you've really got it going well. It looks like it sits nicely in D Class from what you've done so I guess I've overcooked it putting it in B Class where it is royally trounced by the T-bird. That said, it still has similar characteristics to yours (torquey engine, good levels of grip despite only being on sport tyres) - it's just not fast.

As for thoughts on the PI system, my best guess (and it is a guess) is that they will fix the PI on the cars with a short stock box as that's a relatively simple fix, and possibly the Civics as well. But I don't see a fundamental reworking of the entire PI system. That's mainly down to a comment in one of the "Under the Hood" articles where Dan Greenawalt said that although T10 were aware of the 4WD issue with FM3, they patch required to fix it would be too large to send through the normal process. As such, I don;t see an across the board fix, and if I'm honest I don't think the PI is too far out apart from the obvious outliers.
Pleading Guilty to Cone Genocide

Go Random - Trust to Fate :)

GT: Spiny Anteater

Blooze

  • Administrator
  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • ...It's never too early to Panic.
    • View Profile
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2011, 06:14:58 PM »
I been piddlin' about today - watching some football, visiting with my daughter and the like but while all that is going on I have managed to build out the Starion for Class C and run it a little bit.  I added a bit of grip type stuff and devoted the balance of the 75 Pi allowance to power goodies.

Here's how the build looks now...

1988 Mitsubishi Starion ESI - Pi 425

Hp:253
Tq:273
Wt:3027
QR:222.718

Parts
Engine
PAir Filter
SFuel System
SIgnition
PExhaust
PCamshaft
SFlywheel
Handling
RBrakes
RSuspension & ARBs
PChasis & Roll Cage
SWeight Reduction
Drivetrain
SClutch
SDriveshaft
RDifferential
Wheels
Tires:
S235/R16; 265/R16
Rims:
American Torque Thrust

Gearsna

Setup
Wt Bias - SWR
50.00%
44.50%
Parameter     Front      Rear   
Tires
28.5
28.0
Camber
-1.0
-0.8
Toe
0.1
-0.1
Caster
5.0
ARB (51/32)
13.02
12.51
Springs
673.5
673.5
Height
6.8
6.9
Rebound
7.9
7.5
Bump
4.0
4.0
Aero
0
0
Brakes
48
100
Front Diff
0
0
Rear Diff
24
20
Torque
0


I thought adding the P Cam and P Exhaust would make the thing act and sound a bit more interested in the project but it still has that low speed strain to it.  But it goes quick while sounding so slow.  Adding the S Tire Compound brought the G@120 up to 91, tops in the class so you can grunt and groan about anywhere you want with it.

I've been plottin' and plannin' on trading in some horses for a P Transmission.   The tranny will cost me 3 Hp - maybe a higher set of gears will keep me out of the low rpm grind.  Even so, I did break the 67's (barely) for Tsukuba with a 66.988.

I got some more tinkerin' and testin' to do with it so there's gonna be some changes to the report before we're all done here.

But, the 66 in Tsukuba was not the first one.  I got another car there early, early this morning...

;D $
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 10:00:58 PM by Blooze »
GTs: Blooze46 / GICheeze

Proud Owner: Perfect Drift = 0 Badge

Blooze

  • Administrator
  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • ...It's never too early to Panic.
    • View Profile
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2011, 06:39:07 PM »
Every time I walked in the Car Dealerships I could here it callin' my name, "Hey, Blooze!  Hey Buddy... when we gonna take a ride?  Blooze?  Hey!"  But I been all tangled with Ferraris and Muscle cars and such.  About midnight last night, I decided to check my ole friend out, and he did not disappoint.

I almost bought one of these once, for real.  It only had 15000 or so miles on it - and I was thinkin' about Hallet Ok. and goin' car racin' ...  for real.  Back then I had the money for such things.  But I also was fresh off a triple bypass and a couple heart attacks, my wife pointed out.  I really like these little Integras...


2001 Acura Integra Type-R - Pi 425


Hp:200
Tq:133
Wt:2607
QR:224.732

Parts
Engine
SAir Filter
Handling
SBrakes
RSuspension & ARBs
SChassis & Roll Cage
SWeight Reduction
Drivetrain
SClutch
SDriveshaft
PDifferential
Wheels
Tires:
S205/R15; 215/R15
Rims:
American Torque Thrust

Gearsna

Setup
Wt Bias - SWR
50.00%
46.00%
Parameter     Front      Rear   
Tires
28.0
28.5
Camber
-1.0
-0.8
Toe
0.1
0.1
Caster
5.0
ARB (49/32)
12.78
13.31
Springs
599.6
599.6
Height
3.4
3.5
Rebound
7.9
7.8
Bump
3.9
4.2
Aero
0
0
Brakes
48
102
Front Diff
34
0
Rear Diff
0
0
Torque
0


The only knock I got on this is that it is tough to get it rollin' good and I need to spend an extra lap or so gettin' past all the riff raff without getting all scuffed up.  But she handles good, none of the normal FF shinanigans as far as I can tell.  It could use some power, but it does okay with what it's got because it's so light.  Right now it has my PB on Tsukuba and the #1 QRP. 

Except for a little messing around with a '97 Civic on opening day, this is my first FF car this season.  Now I'm all hot to see if the general setup will transfer to others...

Right now I have 4 different WCHLC seasons in the works...  I better be for getting busy, I guess.

;D $
GTs: Blooze46 / GICheeze

Proud Owner: Perfect Drift = 0 Badge

Blooze

  • Administrator
  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • ...It's never too early to Panic.
    • View Profile
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2012, 10:44:16 AM »
This morning I'm in the process of puttin' the finishing touches on the Eclipse GSX' C Class season.  Not bad... the car drives quite well.  It just doesn't have the speed - nothing swapping a few pounds for some Hp wouldn' cure.  The Acura did pretty well.  It is gratifying to see the results as well as "feel" them when it comes to suspension tuning.  I am pretty much not going to be satisfied with an FF car that doesn't have the R Suspension package on it.

Here's the C Class Season results.

Car
  C 
Time
2001 Acura Integra Type-R
18:34.619
1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
18:42.749
-
1988 Mitsubishi Starion ESI-R
00:00.000

The Starion is next...

I've been getting this twitch.  Don't be surprised if over the next month or so I wind up with a whole herd of Modified Fugger Built C Class Hatchbacks.

;D $
GTs: Blooze46 / GICheeze

Proud Owner: Perfect Drift = 0 Badge

Blooze

  • Administrator
  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • ...It's never too early to Panic.
    • View Profile
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2012, 08:10:09 AM »
2013 Hyundai Veloster Turbo - Pi 425

I really like this car.  I especially like Forza's implementation of it - the sound, the look, the performance, everything.  Were I not banned from the public roads and still a part of the work force, there is a good chance that I would buy one of these.  'Specially if I was still commuting to Tulsa everyday - around 60-75 miles round trip, depending on which part of town.



Hp:224
Tq:218
Wt:2787
QR:222.716

Parts
Engine
PAir Filter
SIgnition
SExhaust
SValves & Heads
SBoost
SEngine & Oil Cooling
SFlywheel
Handling
PBrakes
RSuspension & ARBs
PRoll Cage
Drivetrain
RClutch
SDriveline
PDifferential
Wheels
Tires:
S235/R18; 245/R18
Rims:
American Torque Thrust

Gearsna

Setup
Wt Bias - SWR
50.00%
46.00%
Parameter     Front      Rear   
Tires
28.5
29.0
Camber
-1.0
-0.8
Toe
0.1
0.1
Caster
5.0
ARB (50/32)
13.04
13.04
Springs
641
641
Height
5.2
5.3
Rebound
7.9
7.8
Bump
3.9
4.2
Aero
0
0
Brakes
50
100
Front Diff
28
0
Rear Diff
0
0
Torque
0

This build is pretty much what Fugger suggested, except for the S Weight Reduction.  Once again, another Coals to Newcastle maneuver.  So far, this one of the lighter cars in my C class bunch, and it has more Hp than the Scirocco.  So I traded the S WR in on the R Suspension and ARBs.  While I was at it, I swapped the S Transmission for the R Clutch and not only reduced weight, but reduced the shift time another 0.03 seconds (about 30%).  And I was able to throw in a set of Torque Thrusters t'boot.  So, the loss of the S WR didn't really have the impact after it was all said and done.  The benchmarks remained the same, but the car was less squirelly with the lift-off oversteer and much better about exit understeer.  It took the Tsukuba PB from the Starion, and is pretty close to taking the Atl Short time as well.

There is enough difference (improvement) between my Toon and the Fugger build that I went ahead and posted this one on my storefront.

Now all I gotta do is get some sort of lightnin' strike of an idea on how to paint this thing...

;D $
GTs: Blooze46 / GICheeze

Proud Owner: Perfect Drift = 0 Badge

Fit4aking

  • Global Moderator
  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1875
  • Spanky's Star Employee
    • View Profile
    • Benchmark Motors
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2012, 11:48:38 AM »
I finally made time to begin my own Lame Duck session last night.  I bought the cars I didn't have and built them out to C425 according to the Blooze Build Sheet and tuned them up the same way.  While there weren't enough hours in the night to run them all through the TLF tracks I did put each of them on Tsukuba and one random track in World Tour.  Not exactly scientific but fun none-the-less.

First impressions:
Integra - a little pushy but a low 68 second car once I adjusted the nut behind the wheel.
Brera - drives like a much lighter car, very controllable, seems a tad under powered but ran very low 68 seconds.
Starion - extra torque goes a long way to making it feel fast but necessitates throttle control for once, high 67's.
Veloster - shockingly fast and gets up to speed quickly.  Second lap was high 67's and could be faster with practice.

I have a ton of cars in C-class but when the time comes to run all of the tracks I think this set of cars could easily cover all the bases.  The Veloster is near the top of my garage list and the rebuild of the Starion moved it up significantly.  One thing that I will take away from this is the effectiveness of FWD cars.  I haven't spent any time in them but after driving the Acura and the Hyundai I really want to build up a few more.
Go sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

chargercrazy

  • Dyno Technician
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
    • View Profile
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2012, 03:40:30 PM »
What does TLF stand for again?

Blooze

  • Administrator
  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 3553
  • ...It's never too early to Panic.
    • View Profile
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2012, 05:12:46 PM »
TLF = Three Lap Fillosoffee (accent strong on the first sylable).  For me, this season, that is almost every track except the World Championship and Tour race tracks.


For those FF Setups, don't take the positive rear toe setting lightly.  That's what helps them rotate off the back of the turn and keeps them rotating when powerin' out...  'least that is how it seems.

;D $

« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 11:11:59 PM by Blooze »
GTs: Blooze46 / GICheeze

Proud Owner: Perfect Drift = 0 Badge

BarbecuePete

  • Muscle Car Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1137
    • View Profile
Re: Forzacating with a Lame Duck
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2012, 11:28:39 AM »

For those FF Setups, don't take the positive rear toe setting lightly.  That's what helps them rotate off the back of the turn and keeps them rotating when powerin' out...  'least that is how it seems.
;D $

I've only built a couple of FF cars so far, I also added positive toe front and rear to help with turn in response and rotation. I also add positive toe to my AWD builds for the same reason.

Another thing I'm experimenting with on my FF builds is only fitting a rear ARB. The idea being to keep the front end as soft as possible and stiffening up the rear to help with the rotation. Like I said I've only briefly driven a couple of cars so far but  no front ARB seems to feel better than a soft settting on the race ARB.

Extra smokey.... now with no assists!

Owner - Q's Paint 'n' Tune