Steering Assist

[Tonka Crash]

I've got a wheel, but a lot of the time I find it more relaxing to just run laps with the controller. But, I've noticed problems with low speed turning with just the controller. On a lot of the tight hairpins, I just cannot get the steering turned enough to take a turn without excessively slowing down, like brake line gone I'm so slow, no hint of color to the track. There's no hint of squealing tires from understeer and the friction circles are all in the green. I just don't get enough steering input to turn the car. I first really noticed it at Turn 10 on Motegi, but the final turn at Infineon seems to be consistently an issue as well.

I've watched it in telemetry and hard over on the stick just isn't turning far enough. Instead of the wheel pointed 45^o off center it's only about 10^o. I slow down even more and then the steering angle all of a sudden starts increasing. I think Turn 10 screwed up the speed sensitivity. I've found it annoying to have AI accelerate around me on the inside of a turn just because I can't turn the wheel to take the turn any tighter even though I have friction to spare.  Sim or normal steering doesn't seem to matter.

I don't encounter this as often, but I've also run into problems countering skids. It's too easy for the tail to get too far out to correct in what should be controllable. If you get into a a skid you should be able to steer into the skid, but the steering angle limits don't let you beyond a certain point.  If you only get 10^o of steering input and you need 15^o around you go.

These problem just seem more pronounced than I remember in the past and so far I've only noticed it with a controller.

On a related question, can anyone tell me the difference between sim and normal steering? I can't tell a difference unless I'm about to lose the car. I just use whichever one gives the bigger bonus.

[GICheeze]

That's me... I chose the biggest bonus and didn't look back.  But then, I use the wheel exclusively for driving.  According to pre-release dogma from Dan et-al, the steering was to have little affect on wheel users.  On the controller, the Sim steering is supposed to cut out the additional steering provided by the program.  In that the option has 3 choices plus a hardware test to boot, my money is on a truth table SNAFU...

$

[Fit4aking]

I noticed that too Tonka.  I'm a controller user due to the fact that my youngsters couldn't keep their hands off of my wheel and it met an untimely demise.  The steering inputs with simulation steering were annoying at first because I was used to turning in and seeing the wheel go where I tell it too, not it is a much more fluid motion instead of a hurky-jerky snap into the turns.  I've learned to drive around it.  I hardly ever notice it anymore.  One instance that I wish I could switch it off is when the tail comes around.  I find I get into more "tank-slappers" where I see saw the wheel back and forth to keep the car straight instead of counter steering and working out the skid that way.  Now I just try not to get the ass end out too far, or drive like a Porsche and expect the rear to step out at any moment.  Either way I figured it out with practice.

[Open2nd]

I thought the sim-steering option was included for the wheel users.  I recall hearing that it would remove the speed-steering assist that plagued wheel users in previous titles, but there is speculation that it is still around or that the setting doesn't fully remove the assist.

[Tonka Crash]

One instance that I wish I could switch it off is when the tail comes around.  I find I get into more "tank-slappers" where I see saw the wheel back and forth to keep the car straight instead of counter steering and working out the skid that way.

I did several of these tank slappers with the telemetry on to see the wheel input and it seemed to me the reason you get into the tank slapper in the first place is the wheel input is so heavily filtered it's not following your stick inputs and you get out of phase with the car.  In the flying world it's called a PIO (Pilot induced oscillation) usually points out poor control laws or bad logic in fly-by-wire systems.

[TheJohnNewton]

I've also noticed it as a problem on slow turns.  I thought maybe it was a large turning radius problem for the car I was driving but it seemed a little out of whack.  I haven't checked the telemetry on any replays though.  It seems to kick in if I miss an apex on a really slow turn so I then slow way down and try to steer back into the line.  The car just won't turn sharply even though I'm going like 10 mph.

I do remember watching a video of a Microsoft guy talking about doing car simulation software back in the early Forza 3 days (or maybe Forza 2 ?)  He was saying that the physics calculations they use for low speed handling is totally different (and in his words "crap") from the physics calculaitons they use at a higher speed.  I don't know if that's still relevant but it is an interesting coincidence at least.   

[Tonka Crash]

I'm not surprised they have two different models.  I've written software for aircraft flight simulators and I have a separate low speed model, because the high speed model is unstable as speed approaches zero, i.e. equations go asymptotic. But I have a mixer that transitions from low to high speed at 1 knot.  Low enough, it's never really noticed by the pilots.

[Tonka Crash]

I thought the sim-steering option was included for the wheel users.  I recall hearing that it would remove the speed-steering assist that plagued wheel users in previous titles, but there is speculation that it is still around or that the setting doesn't fully remove the assist.

Hooked up my wheel and checked.  At speed, if you whip the wheel to stops the steering input in the Telemetry only goes to about 45^ountil your speed drops and then goes out to the stop. I'm using the MS Wheel. Didn't matter if it was normal or simulation. A weaving input around +/- 45^o seemed to track well, it was only outside that range that things were limited. I could not feel a difference between sim or normal, but I was just doing turns and donuts on the test track. 

On Motegi where the controller seemed limited, the wheel didn't have the problems. At the speeds I would take turn 10 (hairpin turn before the secondary start/finish straight) I could put in full lock and go into an understeer skid with the front wheels sideways, where I couldn't put in enough turn to break them loose before. Intentional or not, it seems Turn 10 gimped controller users.

[Fit4aking]

"Intentional or not, it seems Turn 10 gimped controller users."  +1  Now I have a perfectly good excuse from a credible source that it isn't my fault!!!!  Thanks Tonka.

[Spiny Anteater]

"Intentional or not, it seems Turn 10 gimped controller users."  +1  Now I have a perfectly good excuse from a credible source that it isn't my fault!!!!  Thanks Tonka.

That makes two of us

I tried the sim steering on the demo (don't have a wheel so only on the pad) and as said above have only found any differences between sim and normal steering when the back end steps out... at which point it becomes almost impossible to recover with sim steering. As such, I've been running normal steering.

I have to say though that I've never noticed the chronic understeer at low speeds described above - almost everytime I've had slow-corner understeer it's been my own fault for entering too fast.

[bimmerlovere39]

I, like Spiny, haven't had any of the troubles that you guys are talking about with low-speed understeer. 

As for the tail end stepping out... I'm of mixed feelings.  Big, lurid slides are definitely harder to correct without tank-slapping yourself into the opposite wall, but at the same time I feel I'm able to catch oversteer faster, before they develop into a full on slide.

And if you've seen me online when I'm pushing hard or driven one of my RWD cars... you probably realize how much I value that 

[Big Mooing Cow]

I haven't really tested the steering changes in FM4 so I shouldn't say much, but I have noticed that I have a much easier time controlling difficult RWD cars this time around than I did in FM3.  The 250TR in particular is a pussycat now, where it was very difficult to pull out of a slide in FM3.

I don't know how much of this is FM4 being different and how much is the new sim steering option, because I haven't even tried disabling sim steering.  But I will say that I feel very happy about the steering changes, and not because it's easier, but because catching oversteer with the wheel seems more realistic to me than it was in FM3.

(Great big caveat: I haven't driven 99% of the cars in Forza.    )

[chargercrazy]

"Intentional or not, it seems Turn 10 gimped controller users."  +1  Now I have a perfectly good excuse from a credible source that it isn't my fault!!!!  Thanks Tonka.

That makes two of us

A built in excuse for me also.  Thanks Tonka!!!

[barumba]

"Intentional or not, it seems Turn 10 gimped controller users."  +1  Now I have a perfectly good excuse from a credible source that it isn't my fault!!!!  Thanks Tonka.

That makes two of us

A built in excuse for me also.  Thanks Tonka!!!

Not to be so flippent... I've been struggling with simulation steering since inception of FM4. I use the Fanatec wheel, 250 degrees. Started with normal, went macho for no assists, so set sim steering. I was all over the place at first, but after a while I re-learned breaking and throttle points on the tracks I was most familiar with. I soon started to feel I was slowing down both in and out of turns in order to prevent the uncontrollable hack saw steering. I finaly got the steering to where it felt I was in control, not so much chronic over steer. But felt I as giving up too much lap time to maintain control. I had my family over this past weekend. Invited my nephew-in-law to take a few laps behind the wheel. I loaded a C class Ford Fiesta for him and stood back and watched. It was awful. He did not have a hope in hell to run a complete lap without winding the wheel lock to lock in an effort to keep the little buggy on the trail. I went back in and set difficulty to Normal, he was able to run complete laps and finish the race, last, but kept it on the track. I set steering difficulty to Normal on  a few of my cars this past few days and it felt, well, NORMAL. So for what it is worth, that's where I am setting all cars.
I remember reading before release that the Sim setting was to remove the assists in the controller that we all knew was there for the controllers. Enabling them to navigate tracks that wheel users struggled with. Not so much struggled, but had to deal with more realistic action and reaction to steering input. The wheels were more precise. So, I figure applying Sim steering to the wheel is a mistake. The wheel is already precise.  Apply Sim to the controller, as I think was intended, to remove the assists.
Funny, I remember one of the first questions I asked on the old Muscle Inc forum was "What do you guys use, wheel or controller?" The reason for that question, same as what we discuss here, wheels and controllers react differently. It would appear the developers tried to include a setting (simulation) that would help balance the controller and the wheel. Wheel vs Controller. It would appear it does matter. 

[Big Mooing Cow]

That's interesting Barumba.  I have a Fanatec wheel too, and I have no such trouble.  I find the game easier to control in FM4 with sim steering than FM3 was.  I don't feel any need to saw at the wheel.

I wonder if there's a difference in settings (or firmware version) between our wheels?  Your wheel sounds dreadful with sim steering turned on, way past the point where one could blame driving style.  I forget how much rotation I have on mine... 270 degrees, perhaps?  I also played with my dead zone settings back in GT5 to work around a bug in that game that made the wheel accelerate its force feedback in a closed loop to the point where the wheel would saw at itself.  Perhaps I have a remnant of that setting in my wheel.

If you'd like I could post my wheel settings next time I fire up Forza.  Mine is a Porsche Turbo S.