Author Topic: What makes the AMX so fast?  (Read 640 times)

Jymis

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What makes the AMX so fast?
« on: November 09, 2011, 05:34:32 AM »
So after all the discussion yesteday about FSRA and what is SS and what isn't.  It had me wondering could I build something else to compete with the AMX?  Just for laughs you know to see if I could.  So I went a searchin and found me a car almost identical.  I then prepared it with the same build sheet that Phantom as listed in his garage.  Guess what happened?  It ended up being a B451.

AMX
D299                          C425
332HP    4700rpm     358HP   
430LB-FT  3400rpm     463lb-ft
3445lbs    5000rpm   3199lbs
3.0      Speed        3.0
3.8      Handle       5.1
7.0      ACC            7.6
6.4      Launch       7.6
3.8      Brake         5.1
Top Speed 126.6Mph and 128.0Mph

Barracuda S
D283                          B451
338HP    5000rpm     361HP
395lb-ft     3600rpm     422lb-ft
3470    6000rpm     3210lbs
4.7        Speed      4.7
3.5        Handle     5.0
6.7        Launch     7.2
6.0        ACC          7.4
3.5        Brake       5.1
Top Speed 145.5Mph and 149.9Mph

 

I was a bit surprised that the difference would be so huge.  The only real difference between the two cars is the Speed rating.  Apparently to the game that extra 1000rpm and 21.9mph is worth a whopping 126PI.  Anyways I know in the grand scheme of things its not really a big deal but as the saying goes "Curiosity killed the cat.".

Sorry for the format I'm not exactly educated on coding in HTML or what ever it is this site uses.
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Fit4aking

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2011, 07:47:03 AM »
I think the Speed rating is the PI eater.

As I look through the discussions over on the daught net a resounding theme is that Muscle Cars are flawed.  One issue is the engine swaps in several of the cars, not the AMX that I've seen yet, but not drivetrain swaps like in FM3.  In the lower classes the ability to stuff a V10 into a dart and not lose the factory transmission is another discussion point.  The factory gearing sets the potential top speed of the car and doesn't change based on engine mods.

If a newer higher revving engine or a new high revving cam is put behind a fixed gearset the car will go faster but Forza doesn't seem to take that into effect when calculating PI.  Looking over the beginning and ending stats of the two, very similar, cars it is easy to see how close they look.  However, 1.7 additional speed points adds up to a large increase in top end. 

IIRC Dirt and Fndr were calculating what each 0.1 worked out to be in mph.  I know that the AMX is limited to 127.9 in my build.  Round up to 130.  Divide it by 3.0 and each 0.1 is worth 4.3 mph.  Still talking about speed rating here to be clear.

AMX = 130 mph calculated top speed with a 3.0 rating

Using that one example as a rationale the Barracuda would be capable of a much faster top speed and would be quicker around the available tracks as well as the mythical PI track.

Barracuda S has 1.7 more top speed points and that equates to 73 more mph on the top end.  (Assuming this is correct and I'm sure it is less across more examples)  That is a lot of top speed and a huge deal in the overall times on a large number of tracks.  Even on Infineon all of my cars are pushing over 110mph on the short straights.  On Road Atlanta or Sebring a car with the ability to go 20 or 30 mph would easily overtake the AMX with similar handling abilities.  At 73 mph the poor AMX is a sitting duck on the straights.

I don't think the Javelin is hands down better.  I think it is a light weight car with a low speed rating and loads of grip.  Several other cars fall into this category but as the leaderboard, and even here, proves.  Once a front-runner emerges the hordes flock to it and increase its popularity as well as its presence in the top spots.  Why spend time going through 3, or 5, or even 10 cars to find something different when you can grab a proven front runner, download a tune, and run a good time?

As we all go through this game and find out what makes it tick and how to manipulate it I'm sure there will be outliers that shine in specific settings and other cars that are a mismatch for the environment.  Are we cheating at that point or just using all of the available information and options to create the best tool for the job?  If it were possible to oversee and account for all of the cars and all of the options and the human element we would all be in the running for head of the FIA.  As long as there are rules there will be more people looking to stretch them than trying to survive within them.

It's all part of the fun and the reasoning behind why we run early challenges like this.  To find the outliers and determine what to do with them.  I know my AMX time should have an asterisk next to it at this point in the FSRA challenge but as the first challenge it was not knowable that it would work out like it has.  I remember the Muscle Inc days and once the guidelines were established and well worked through we had very close racing.  It didn't happen on the first outing so as a work in progress the FSRA is still under construction until the results of this challenge group the cars and available upgrades together.
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Blooze

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2011, 10:36:32 AM »
What seemed really strange to me was the Pi hit associated with the AMX' transmission upgrades.  iirc, the Sport upgrade was 72 points, and the Race upgrade was 74.  Without upgrading the transmission/FD, and therefore bringing the speed spec in line with the others leaves room for all sorts of grip goodies.  I was able to fit the widest DoT spec tires on mine and still stayed under 409, which included all the rest of the pieces we have come to associate with an SS build.

Most of the other cars I have built had Tranny Pi costs that were less than 20 points.

Changing the tranny in the AMX to Sport seriously changes the game for that car.

;D $
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Jymis

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2011, 12:42:30 PM »
I've been playing Forza since #2, but never online and never as a part of group of guys like this.  It is really an eyeing opening experience to see how you guys approach a car build, and set guidelines for builds.  I must say it has taken my enjoyment/experience to new hieghts.  I'm glad I stumbled upon this wonderful forum.
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DirtDriver

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2011, 12:55:45 PM »
I just barely remember stumbling across this group...but I was drinking.

You fit right in, Jymis. Hopefully, we can get you in some online races soon.

DD

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2011, 01:32:24 PM »
But beware of the R3 Baptism by Fire/Hazing.

And the goats.  ;)

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Jymis

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2011, 01:43:03 PM »
But beware of the R3 Baptism by Fire/Hazing.

And the goats.  ;)

Well that almost sounds fun.  I find there is nothing better for learning then a good baptism by fire.
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Fit4aking

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2011, 02:17:34 PM »
More of a baptism by bump-draft.  Just watch out for Dirt in the middle of the last corner.  He goes from Drafting Partner to Draft Dodger in less than 1.2 seconds.  Slingshot master!!
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PhantomGinn

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2011, 03:16:28 PM »
That was a fun day, we definitely need another one of those sometime soon

TopBoost

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2011, 03:21:05 PM »
The concept of teammate was lost on DD that day, I think.  :P

I'm gonna have to become a draft-dodger, I fear. Or break out the Coronet. Nothing protects you from spinouts and the like than... Well... Last place.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2011, 03:23:40 PM by TopBoost »
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Jymis

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2011, 04:13:32 PM »
The concept of teammate was lost on DD that day, I think.  :P

I'm gonna have to become a draft-dodger, I fear. Or break out the Coronet. Nothing protects you from spinouts and the like than... Well... Last place.

I figured that spot was reserved for me
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DirtDriver

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2011, 04:27:40 PM »
Hey! If'n ya cain't drive in straight line I cain't be held responsible for the consequences, ya bunch a nancy-boys! Well, except for thet slingshot move ole Fit is referencin'. Shake and Bake, baby!

DD

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2011, 05:16:06 PM »
The concept of teammate was lost on DD that day, I think.  :P

I'm gonna have to become a draft-dodger, I fear. Or break out the Coronet. Nothing protects you from spinouts and the like than... Well... Last place.

I figured that spot was reserved for me

You clearly haven't experienced my C425 Coronet... ;)
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Open2nd

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2011, 06:06:50 PM »
I'd like to take this moment and proclaim, I taught him everything he knows.



:D

TheJohnNewton

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Re: What makes the AMX so fast?
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2011, 12:23:26 PM »
I think the key is found here:

3.0      Speed        3.0
3.8      Handle       5.1
7.0      ACC            7.6

As long as you're on a track where the low top speed doesn't matter the handling and accel ratings are going to rule.   
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