Author Topic: FM2 Ford Focus SVT, Mazda(Miata) Roadster and Toyota MR-S[D400]  (Read 1436 times)

Choccy

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FM2 Ford Focus SVT, Mazda(Miata) Roadster and Toyota MR-S[D400]
« on: September 11, 2009, 05:30:32 AM »
FM2 Ford Focus SVT[D400] - Nurburgring tune[ 09:06.220 capable(MT, no assists) ]

170hp / 145 lb-ft - 2,118 lbs - 61%

STREET Cervini's hood
SPORT brakes, transmission, clutch, flywheel, differential
RACE springs, ARB, driveline, weight reduction
TIRES stock rubber, 225/45R17, stock rim diameter(17"), Motegi Trak_Lite 2 rims

*** "Front / Rear" is tuning list format, red boldface for fine tune adjustments  ***

27 / 26 psi

4.25 FD

-1.0 / -0.9 camber

0.0 / 0.0 toe

5.0 degrees caster

7.85 / 13.19 ARB

586.1 / 353.3 springs

3.7 / 3.7 ride height

9.4 / 6.5 rebound

4.2 / 2.7 bump

5% differential

=====

FM2 Mazda Roadster[D400] - Nurburgring tune[ 08:56.319 capable(MT, no assists) ]

176hp / 149 lb-ft - 2,344 lbs - 52%

STREET Garage Valley(Japan) hood, weight reduction
SPORT intake, exhaust, brakes, transmission, flywheel, driveline, differential
RACE springs, ARB, clutch
TIRES stock rubber, stock width, stock diameter(17"), Fikse Profil 13 rims

*** "Front / Rear" is tuning list format, red boldface for fine tune adjustments  ***

28 / 28 psi

4.10 FD

-1.0 / -1.0 camber

0.0 / 0.0 toe

5.0 degrees caster

9.88 / 11.47 ARB

539.4 / 492.0 springs

5.0 / 5.0 ride height

8.3 / 7.9 rebound

3.7 / 3.5 bump

10 % differential

=====

FM2 Toyota MR-S[D400] - Nurburgring tune[ 09:03.960 capable(MT, no assists) ]

159 hp / 144 lb-ft - 2,145 lbs - 45%

SPORT engine block, brakes, transmission, clutch, flywheel, driveline, differential
RACE springs, ARB
TIRES stock rubber, stock tire width, stock rim diameter(15"), O.Z Racing Superleggera III rims

*** "Front / Rear" is tuning list format, red boldface for fine tune adjustments ***

25 / 25 psi

4.31 FD

-0.9 / -0.9 camber

0.0 / 0.0 toe

5.0 degrees caster

11.96 / 9.32 ARB

452.1 / 560.4 springs

5.3 / 5.6 ride height

6.6 / 8.2 rebound

3.0 / 3.8 bump

10% differential
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 08:18:18 PM by Choccy »

fndrbndr

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Re: Ford Focus SVT[D400]
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2009, 06:39:44 AM »
Another kindred spirit.  Awesome.  Any times yet?  Also, what issues are you having, if any, and are those settings front/rear?  Assuming that's the case, I have a couple of observations.

1.  I would actually flip the spring rates and shock settings around.  Soft springs up front and stiff springs in the rear will help keep the weight on the front wheels, since they're the ones doing the turning AND the accelerating.  The rear is just kind of along for the ride.  No real reason to have any weight back there when the front wheels are doing all the work.

2.  I'd go with a much more extreme ARB setup.  I've seen lots of people running F/R setups of 1/40 (also what I favor), and Ske (our resident FF genius-if he contradicts me on any of this, assume that I'm wrong, lol) has had a lot of luck with 9/40 settings.  The idea is to get a lot of turn-in and a lot of rotation, since the tendency of FF cars is to understeer.  The 1/40 setup is sort of the equivalent of removing the bar, IMO, so there's a real-world justification for it, which is also kind of cool.  I've also seen a lot of people accomplish this with toe settings (or both).  However, for the Ring, I'd think that would hurt top speed too much.  It's worth a few mph at Maple Valley, and the Ring is much more wide-open than that.

3.  I see you went with stock power and yanked out all the extra weight.  I'm doing my happy dance because someone else here goes with weight reduction builds.  However, my office-mates are looking at me funny, and I'm not sure how appropriate this is for the Ring.  I would think you'd get more out of either better rubber or (more likely) more power.  The long straights are trouble for the low-hp grip monsters, even the ones with room for slicks.  While a FF "missile" is probably not allowed by the PI, I'd gladly put some weight back in and slap on an upgraded exhaust/intake on this car.

Any of the above is, of course, stuff I came up with before actually driving the car.  It's possible that I'm entirely wrong.  If so, just say so.  However, these are things I think might help.  Can't wait to see some laptimes.  Also, thanks for posting! 
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Detrick

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Re: Ford Focus SVT[D400]
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2009, 07:40:34 AM »
^^^

Agreed with fndr on pretty much all points.  Go more weight, more HP for the 'Ring.  And switching the springs rates as fndr suggested means the car will turn like a champ.

Besides that my typical FF setup will include F/R toe at +0.1 / + 0.2 and a caster setting around 5.5 or 5.6.  Both will help initial turn-in and response.  Finally (and without looking at telemetry) the tire psi seems a bit low for stock tires.  For me, stock rubber seems to respond better to a higher setting.


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Choccy

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Re: Ford Focus SVT[D400]
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2009, 10:15:14 AM »
Another kindred spirit.  Awesome.  Any times yet?  Also, what issues are you having, if any, and are those settings front/rear?  Assuming that's the case, I have a couple of observations...

Any of the above is, of course, stuff I came up with before actually driving the car.  It's possible that I'm entirely wrong.  If so, just say so.  However, these are things I think might help.  Can't wait to see some laptimes.  Also, thanks for posting!  
I'm a newcomer to F-T.net but I've had constructive dialogue with both feuerdog and barumba on FM.net in the past.

I read and respect the rules/guidelines here. I'm not trying to boast or sell any ideas beyond enjoying FM2 to the fullest and having a car that anyone can use to good effect.

This Focus build has been tuned using all my previous accumulated knowledge(real-life track time, in-game track time since FM2's release, copious amounts of library texts and online forum research, etc.). I had submitted a theory on FM.net regarding spring rate tuning last year. Since then, with additional testing, tweaking and stupid amounts of lapping, I've developed a better understanding of how to harmonize my tunes to maximize grip and handling at each venue. I'm in the "realistic" tuning camp.

This build is not an outright speed demon. It's not intended as such. As you graciously indicated with "kindered spirit", I aim for tunes that promote handling first and foremost(like others on this forum I believe). As well, I avoid aerodynamic aids until I believe I am working with a car that can attain high enough speeds to warrant them.

As both tuner and driver, I have no issues with this build. It allows for near maximum attack speeds in some of the most demanding sections of The Ring.

The caveat is, driving such a build requires some adherence to the tenets of performance driving. The concepts you hear at an advanced driving school or trackday allow for the most enjoyment of this car.

1- Be smooth with your inputs.
2- The accelerator is not an on/off switch. Modulation is key.
3- With smoothness, inevitably, comes speed.

I'll have to check for my times a few nights ago. I think I managed 09:10(MT, no assists). I'll confirm.

Please don't think I'm being flippant to say this. Try the car first. Put in three or more really committed laps. Use out-in-out and slow-in fast-out techniques. You be surprised how fast this anemic car can go if you carry all your momentum through the turns. Especially in the technical sections.

Building a car that can reach higher top speeds becomes textbook if you can tune a slow car to achieve equivalent high speeds in cornering. If you can tune a 170 hp Focus SVT to enter and exit a turn at better speeds than an untuned 300 hp MB 300SL, then you can tune the MB to be at least equally stable and, as a result, put the MB in better position to exploit it's big power.

I'm absolutely open to speed enhancements and tuning critique. But put a few laps in first. Then come back with what tweaks you feel are needed.

I'm keen to hammer out any and all remaining unknowns regarding in-game tuning before FM3 hits retail. I loathe the idea of seeing replays of the new game with such beautifully rendered machines bouncing and jouncing around like jalopies on overly soft springs or darting herky-jerky because of excessively stiff ARB.

And thanks for the warm reception. Good to find a haven for tuning discussion.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 02:23:12 PM by Choccy »

Choccy

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Re: Ford Focus SVT[D400]
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2009, 03:32:16 PM »
1.  I would actually flip the spring rates and shock settings around.  Soft springs up front and stiff springs in the rear will help keep the weight on the front wheels, since they're the ones doing the turning AND the accelerating.  The rear is just kind of along for the ride.  No real reason to have any weight back there when the front wheels are doing all the work.
I acknowledge there are proven tunes that get a percentage of the population around the Forza tracks faster than the majority. Many of those tunes are as far removed from real-world tuning as can be. I can't deny that.

I submit tunes tested to give the driver overall improved control and cornering ability. How fast the driver is able to go after that is up to the driver.

In this example, 61% of the Focus' weight is located over the front axle. 39% at the rear.

I'll use an analogy of two body builders, arms raised and apart and palms up, looking a little like (American) football uprights. (I figure this isn't necessary for the old guard here, but new members or lurkers may benefit.)

Imagine one body builder's arms as the front pair of springs. The second body builder's arms as the rear springs. Both men are holding up a large wooden plank at each corner. There are cinder blocks piled on the plank to simulate the Focus' distributed weight.

Both men are equally strong and can benchpress the same maximum amount of weight individually(Mr. A can press 700 lbs, Mr. B can press 700 lbs).

If the Focus' weight was equally distributed 50/50, then each body builder would be holding up 1054 lbs.
Any deviation from 50% weight distribution means one body builder is supporting more weight than the other.

If the body builder at the front of the wooden plank has to support more weight, it means he has to exert more force to move or limit the movement of that weight. And since he's holding the weight over his head(above the ground), he's doing just that. Limiting the movement of the plank against the downward force of gravity.

Imagine a strong crosswind against the two men and the items they're holding. That air pressure applies a slight force causing the supported items to tip slightly away from level position(the body builder's arms support the plank, but they are not absolutely rigid, they can flex under the load).

If the body builder at the front of the plank is supporting more of the car's total weight, would you say he needs to exert himself more to counteract the crosswind and return the plank to a level position? More weight means more work required to support and move(or limit movement).

If the body builder at the rear of the plank is supporting less of the car's total weight, would you say he needs to exert himself less to counteract the crosswind and return the plank to a level position? Less weight means less work required to support and move(or limit movement).

What might be the effect of placing a stronger body builder at the rear of the plank?
If the body builder at the front of the plank was having difficulty returning the plank to level position, what would be the effect of the body builder at the rear if he applied more force from the rear to level the plank? Would it help? How much extra force would be required to try and manipulate the plank from the rear if the bulk of the weight is at the front? Would there be any compromise? Perhaps a possibility of snapping the plank?

Replace the body builders with conventional springs. Would you need increased spring stiffness to support the heavy end or light end of the car? If the engine, drive wheels, steering wheels and, as a reuslt, majority of the weight are at the front of a FF car, would it not be more critical to ensure maximum stability of the front end of the vehicle?

I know Forza 2 tuning works in a myriad of ways for different players. I find speed through confidence in the car. I've been kicked from more lobbies than I care to mention as a result of having the car that pursues, keeps up or passes other AH or leaderboard cars for nothing more than my ability to commit the car through a turn. I've literally seen other players nudge against my car and rebound away as if they struck a tank. My car continuing along its path.

More importantly though, I've seen a growing number of cars/drivers who clearly have "the right stuff". Many of my best races have been against such drivers, neck and neck, conservative car-to-car contact, and near bumper-to-bumper pursuits. Absolutely brilliant replay footage. Great camaraderie afterwards. A stable tune, however you achieve it works wonders for competition.

barumba

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Re: Ford Focus SVT[D400]
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2009, 06:42:07 PM »
Holly cwap. Analogies are us. Great scenario, though. I have to attest to this concept of spring weight balance. I have experienced it first hand, based on Choccy's theory.  My speeds suck because I can't tune a trany to defend my life, but my cars handle like a dream, rock solid, using a stiffer suspension, less tight ARB concept.
And, like the tortoise said to the hare, slow and steady wins the race.
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fndrbndr

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Re: Ford Focus SVT[D400]
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2009, 11:23:33 PM »
I took your recommendation, and took three laps of the 'Ring.  It rotates better than I thought it would. I'm not sure I'm sold on the build if the goal is laptimes on the 'Ring.  However, it is a very good training tool, if that's the aim.  And if I'm on the Ring, it's probably best to go ahead and put me in a rally car. lol  My best time was 9:23.922.  There might be a 9:20.xxx in it for me, maybe a little more than that on a really good lap, but that's probably a fair representation of what I can do with the car.  I'm wondering about those tire pressures.  IIRC, we learned during the Clio Cup that low pressures tended to hamper top speed.  I've noticed in this car that power tends to drop off near the top in 4th gear.  The car is a 170 hp brick, so it's not shocking that it's lacking above 120 mph, but I'm wondering if a few extra PSI in the rear might help make the transition to 5th gear a little better.  Also, I'm thinking about a racing clutch to improve shift times.  I'm not sure it will even cost a PI point. 

Taking my comments, I decided to change one thing at a time, so I upped the tires to 28/32 (front/rear).  The car is a little more difficult to control, but the laptimes dropped.  My first lap was a 9:23.xxx.  In my second, I discovered that the extra speed creates a spot where you have to lift a bit (oops!), and the third lap was a 9:18.248.  Your pressures are probably more forgiving, but getting closer to real-world pressures (still too low if RL is the goal, just for the record) definitely gives a faster car at this track.  I was definitely finding the edge of traction more easily in this car, even if I was also a little more likely to cross it.  I'll probably take another stab at this tomorrow, when I'm a little fresher (my day starts about 6am during the work week). 
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Choccy

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Re: Ford Focus SVT[D400]
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2009, 12:49:00 AM »
I took your recommendation, and took three laps of the 'Ring.  It rotates better than I thought it would. I'm not sure I'm sold on the build if the goal is laptimes on the 'Ring.  However, it is a very good training tool, if that's the aim.  And if I'm on the Ring, it's probably best to go ahead and put me in a rally car. lol  My best time was 9:23.922.  There might be a 9:20.xxx in it for me, maybe a little more than that on a really good lap, but that's probably a fair representation of what I can do with the car.  I'm wondering about those tire pressures.  IIRC, we learned during the Clio Cup that low pressures tended to hamper top speed.  I've noticed in this car that power tends to drop off near the top in 4th gear.  The car is a 170 hp brick, so it's not shocking that it's lacking above 120 mph, but I'm wondering if a few extra PSI in the rear might help make the transition to 5th gear a little better.  Also, I'm thinking about a racing clutch to improve shift times.  I'm not sure it will even cost a PI point.  

Taking my comments, I decided to change one thing at a time, so I upped the tires to 28/32 (front/rear).  The car is a little more difficult to control, but the laptimes dropped.  My first lap was a 9:23.xxx.  In my second, I discovered that the extra speed creates a spot where you have to lift a bit (oops!), and the third lap was a 9:18.248.  Your pressures are probably more forgiving, but getting closer to real-world pressures (still too low if RL is the goal, just for the record) definitely gives a faster car at this track.  I was definitely finding the edge of traction more easily in this car, even if I was also a little more likely to cross it.  I'll probably take another stab at this tomorrow, when I'm a little fresher (my day starts about 6am during the work week).  
Cheers for the feedback fndrbndr.

I checked my locally saved, Free Run Nurburgring time with the Focus build as I originally listed it - 09:06.732(MT, no assists). I'm not the fastest Forza driver by any stretch.

As well, I'm still an amateur for revising gear ratios. Adjusting the sport transmission FD might yield marginal gains.

But ultimately, I know I can still carry more speed through the turns to shave another second or two off that 09:06. This tune gives meaning to "caning the whip to an inch of its life".

This also illustrates why I'm not overly concerned about listing times for my tunes. Without knowing how someone drives, a time I achieve may or may not be attainable by another person. What I'm most concerned about is handling. More precisely, handling at the car's limit. D, C and some B class vehicles can be outdriven by a player if the car is tuned for stability. I'm talking about knowing where you can take two wheels off without penalty time, but the suspension holds up and allows you to forge ahead with a cracking lap.

If a driver who regularly places on the leaderboards tried my tune, unchanged, could he or she surpass 09:06.nnn? I would think the top drivers can show us mere gaming mortals a thing or two about any car they were handed.

Offer an F1 or WRC competitor the keys to your daily driver and he or she will show you the definition of speed. He or she will demonstrate how to put a car through its paces. Balls out. They can also tell you with accuracy, where a cars deficiencies reside.

I'm going to submit a couple more D class tunes of different drivetrain configurations. I'm midway through the Mercedes-Benz 300SL. I want to see if that big power from Germany can be harnessed as eloquently as the anemic Focus.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 01:21:22 AM by Choccy »

Choccy

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Re: Ford Focus SVT[D400]
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2009, 01:19:35 AM »
Nothing motivates like your own ghost. :-p

09:06.220 on my second Free Lap of two tonight.

If I had to scrutinze, I think I would make fine adjustments to the rear ARB to further reduce the by-the-nose handling sensation. I'll come back to this a little later.


fndrbndr

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Re: Ford Focus SVT[D400]
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2009, 08:55:08 AM »
Yeah, the 'Ring is far and away my worst track, and I'm a pretty mid-pack driver to begin with.  I know the Ring only marginally well.  The improvement from the tire pressures, at least for me, was immediate, even though it frankly wasn't that noticeable.  I think it has to do with less having less rolling resistance.  It was hard to get the rears up to temp, though. 
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TheJohnNewton

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Re: Ford Focus SVT[D400]
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2009, 09:30:13 AM »
Handling is fine, power is low, with my poor rusty skills I managed a 9:25.9.
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Drift2XL

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Re: Ford Focus SVT[D400]
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2009, 03:13:07 PM »
I think I'll take a run at it myself. Hopefully tonight.

I'm at least decent on the Ring. So I'll shake it down pretty hard.
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barumba

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Re: Ford Focus SVT and Mazda Roadster[D400]
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2009, 12:28:00 PM »
Hey, choc.
OK, I tried your posted set up. Had a few issues with oversteer (my driving, I'd wager). Best I could muster was about 9:40, give or take a few. I could not negotiate the ring without an off or three, costing me many penalty seconds. If slowed down to stay between the ditches, the result was the same, slow total time.
So I did what I usually do and stiffened the springs, softened the ARB, a few more tweaks in the damps.
I found the greatest impact was with going with the stock gear ratio (3.3). I was able to stay peddele to the mettle most of the track, with gears 2 and 3, only gearing down to 1 or up to 4 in a few tight spots or down hill runs. Anyway, with this setup I was able to manage a 9:28:865, no penalty time, and only a few close calls. If the tires went onto the grass at all, I was able to continue on, full throttle.
         
Input Data         
Vehicle Make & Model   Ford Focus SVT D400    
Units   Imperial   CLASS:    D400
Drive Type   FF   Front Engine - Front Wheel Drive   
Weight   2118   lbs   Manual Tuning Adjustments
Weight Distribution - Front   61%   Trany:   FD- 3.30
Downforce - Front   0.00   lb   1-x.xx                    2-x.xx
Downforce - Rear   0.00   lb   3-x.xx                    4-x.xx
Tire Width - Front   225      5-x.xx                    6-x.xx
Tire Width - Rear   225      
Output data         
Tire Pressure         
Tire Pressure - Front      psi   30
Tire Pressure - Rear      psi   31
Alignment         
Camber - Front      °   -0.7
Camber - Rear      °   -0.6
Toe - Front   0.1   °   
Toe - Rear   0.1   °   
Caster      °   5.2
Roll Bars         
Roll Bar - Front   7.30      
Roll Bar - Rear   7.18      
Springs         
Spring Rate - Front   646.00   
Spring Rate - Rear   413.02      
Dampers         
Rebound - Front   5.87   Base:   
Rebound - Rear   4.38   1.20   
Bump - Front   4.89      
Bump - Rear   3.65      
Brakes         
Brake Balance         
Brake Pressure         
Differential         
Acceleration - Front   10%
Deceleration - Front   0%      
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 12:30:13 PM by barumba »
If you’re gonna jump then jump far, fly like a sky diver
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fndrbndr

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Re: Ford Focus SVT and Mazda Roadster[D400]
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2009, 12:32:27 PM »
Ooh...I'll have to give the miata a look.  My D-class miata is posted in my garage, but it's more of a mongoose.  I was able to shave a few seconds with an SM, though (PI393, I think).
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Drift2XL

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Re: Ford Focus SVT and Mazda Roadster[D400]
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2009, 12:38:33 PM »
You want to see funny. I got smoked by an A Class missile Miata on the 'Ring last weekend.

Rotary was in full song as he passed me in the main straight. Like I was standing still.
There are only three true sports
Auto Racing, Bull Fighting, and Mountain Climbing.
Everything else are children's games that men play
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