Author Topic: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?  (Read 1724 times)

Ske

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GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« on: September 24, 2007, 06:31:00 PM »
First of all, I'm not sure if this is appropriate at all... just close/move/delete if you think it's got nothing to do here ;)

As I mentioned on fm.net earlier I'd really like to make a good car out of the Skyline R34. It's a car I've always liked, but it felt rather bland in FM2. Now that I've had a few days break from Forza, I thought I'd sit down and do some enduros...so I picked the GT-R for A-class. Just thought I'd mention that my game disc suddenly decided to become "unreadable" as I exited the enduro too... and nope, it didn't save. I think I'll have to to invest in a new copy tomorrow >:(

Unlike last time I tested the Skyline, I ran pretty good laps with it at Silverstone - scoring pretty consistent 1.52's right away. The thing is, I couldn't get the car to feel as good as I wanted... It understeers quite abruptly from entry to mid-corner, and it has a tendency to oversteer if upset. It'll even overload all four tires at once without too much punishment. The verdict so far is that it's lacking in overall grip. It's not very heavy at 2500 something lbs, so I think the widest slicks should have plenty more to offer. I get some "abnormal" heat readings from telemetry (they don't match camber), and the car is unstable through the first high-speed chicane. I'm pretty stumped to be honest, as this could be any combination of dampers/alignment/diff/tires... I've tried Kumho and Michelin compounds but didn't spot much of a difference.

I'll provide a more in-depth analysis if there's any interest in this, but here's where I'm currently at:

  • Parts: Race platform, Michelin slicks, 375HP, roughly 2500lbs.

  • Tires: 29/29 (They don't seem to heat up quite as much as I'd like so 30/30 might be an option)
  • Camber: -.8/-.7 (Despite the heavy ARBs and camber, the tires get very warm on the outside.. leading me to believe that it could be an alignment/tire problem)
  • Toe: 0/0 (The car's stability improved a lot when I ditched my usual front toe-out)
  • Caster: 6 (I think this car needs less, to be honest)
  • ARB: 15/25 ("Usual" setup with doubled rear bar)
  • Springs: 500/400 (I'm not quite sure what to do with these, the amount of over vs under is just about right but it's not balanced)
  • Rebound: 9/7.5 (Decreased rear rebound a bit from my usual setup to try and get more front grip under braking)
  • Bump: 6.5/6 (Decreased front bump for the same reason.. made it a bit calmer but it's still pretty unstable)
  • Brakes: 45%/70% (Seems fine)
  • Diff: F30/15 R55/30 - 25/75 Split (It seems to like a "tight" front diff)
  • Aero: Both at 50% (I'd rather have mechanical grip before tuning this)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 06:32:40 PM by Ske »

bimmerlovere39

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2007, 07:55:35 PM »
Hm... interesting.

I would say, "I'll check this out tomorrow." - but that'd be lieing.  I'm gonna be way to busy with Halo!

Try softening you ARBs.  That might help predictability.  Maybe a little more power to the front end to cure power-on oversteer.  That's allow you to put on more even springs... which would help, also.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 07:57:20 PM by bimmerlovere39 »
It is highly likely that the above post was produced with a drippy jowl.

Blooze

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2007, 10:20:00 PM »
Which car are you starting with? 

I will try to build one out tomorrow.

:)
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Ske

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2007, 10:29:50 PM »
I'm starting with the newest R34 Skyline GT-R V-Spec. The Nür version seems to run out of PI after weight reduction and slicks, but the normal V-Spec fits neatly in A class with the Nür engine swap.

Even on a fast track like Silverstone a grip build is the faster option (for me at least)... so I think it's all about dialing in the numbers now.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 10:31:29 PM by Ske »

Blooze

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2007, 07:40:51 AM »
Well, hoping that the 2002 V-Spec II is the correct one...

First thing that jumped out at me was the swap to the Nur engine.  I think I would pass on that for these reasons.
  • It lowers the Tq/Hp ratio from .876 to .852
  • It adds 9 pounds to the car
  • It moves the Hp ad Torque peaks down - you lose 500 RPM on the Redline

Although 15 Hp for 15 PI points is a good deal, the cost in other areas makes me glance askance and sneaky like at it.  Consider the stock engine with the Street Exhaust.  It cost 19 PI points, but it maintains the Tq/Hp ratio, adds sixteen horses to the car and the weight remains the same.  If you consider Credit cost...  16,600 vs. 1,170 (for me) then there really is no debate.

:) $
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bimmerlovere39

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2007, 08:51:09 AM »
True, but is a lower redline always worse?

Also, think about the curves, not just ratios.  If the Nur has more torque down low, then it might be worth it.
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Blooze

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2007, 09:09:48 AM »
True, but is a lower redline always worse?

Also, think about the curves, not just ratios.  If the Nur has more torque down low, then it might be worth it.
There ya go not reading everything again :D

The Tq/Hp ratio drops...  Specifically, the Nur engine has tq = 289;  stock engine with street exhaust = 303

:)
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bimmerlovere39

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2007, 09:19:47 AM »
I actually did read that much, lol  :D

I'm saying that, say, if the torque curve of the Nur is a straight line at 289, versus the standard being everest up to 303.

Yeah, I'm exaggerating, but ya get my point? 

Don't forget about other factors, too (IE Turbo Lag).

The R34 Nur has a better stock PI than the Spec-V for a reason...

Wait... it does, doesn't it?
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Blooze

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2007, 09:26:31 AM »
It's heavier, and just 15 more horses.  It has a very high speed rating which may indicate a better air profile.  Perhaps a good soul that has access to Asian cars could gift me one in exchange for some piece of American Iron that interests them...

The PI for the Nur is 666 (yick) and for the regular R-34 its 584

:)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2007, 12:19:39 PM by Blooze »
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Big Mooing Cow

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2007, 10:12:29 AM »
First of all, I'm not sure if this is appropriate at all... just close/move/delete if you think it's got nothing to do here ;)

As I mentioned on fm.net earlier I'd really like to make a good car out of the Skyline R34. It's a car I've always liked, but it felt rather bland in FM2. Now that I've had a few days break from Forza, I thought I'd sit down and do some enduros...so I picked the GT-R for A-class. Just thought I'd mention that my game disc suddenly decided to become "unreadable" as I exited the enduro too... and nope, it didn't save. I think I'll have to to invest in a new copy tomorrow >:(

Unlike last time I tested the Skyline, I ran pretty good laps with it at Silverstone - scoring pretty consistent 1.52's right away. The thing is, I couldn't get the car to feel as good as I wanted... It understeers quite abruptly from entry to mid-corner, and it has a tendency to oversteer if upset. It'll even overload all four tires at once without too much punishment. The verdict so far is that it's lacking in overall grip. It's not very heavy at 2500 something lbs, so I think the widest slicks should have plenty more to offer. I get some "abnormal" heat readings from telemetry (they don't match camber), and the car is unstable through the first high-speed chicane. I'm pretty stumped to be honest, as this could be any combination of dampers/alignment/diff/tires... I've tried Kumho and Michelin compounds but didn't spot much of a difference.

I'll provide a more in-depth analysis if there's any interest in this, but here's where I'm currently at:

  • Parts: Race platform, Michelin slicks, 375HP, roughly 2500lbs.

  • Tires: 29/29 (They don't seem to heat up quite as much as I'd like so 30/30 might be an option)
  • Camber: -.8/-.7 (Despite the heavy ARBs and camber, the tires get very warm on the outside.. leading me to believe that it could be an alignment/tire problem)
  • Toe: 0/0 (The car's stability improved a lot when I ditched my usual front toe-out)
  • Caster: 6 (I think this car needs less, to be honest)
  • ARB: 15/25 ("Usual" setup with doubled rear bar)
  • Springs: 500/400 (I'm not quite sure what to do with these, the amount of over vs under is just about right but it's not balanced)
  • Rebound: 9/7.5 (Decreased rear rebound a bit from my usual setup to try and get more front grip under braking)
  • Bump: 6.5/6 (Decreased front bump for the same reason.. made it a bit calmer but it's still pretty unstable)
  • Brakes: 45%/70% (Seems fine)
  • Diff: F30/15 R55/30 - 25/75 Split (It seems to like a "tight" front diff)
  • Aero: Both at 50% (I'd rather have mechanical grip before tuning this)

I'll try throwing a hail mary first guess like I would if I bought the car and had the handling problems you described.  This may be completely off base, but here's my thinking.

The tires are wearing on the outside, so first off I'd increase the camber.  Maybe try -1.0 front and rear to start, and adjust from there.

I'd reduce the caster, personally.  My general feeling with caster is that 5.0->5.5 reduces the sharpness of turn-in a bit, other than its obvious effect on camber.  I've tried 6.0 on a few cars that were way too unstable on turn-in, but it never seemed to help.  I'd try reducing caster to 5.5, or maybe even back to 5.0 and see what effect that has on turn-in.

The car oversteers under steady state cornering?  (Maple Valley Short's first sweeper is AWESOME for testing this, by the way)  If so, I'd drop the rear sway bar down a good bit.  I like stiff RSBs on my AWD cars, too, but since most of your other numbers aren't out of the ordinary, this alone might cure your steady state oversteer (if that's indeed what you were experiencing).

If it's only on throttle you get oversteer, I'd try to optimize your rear accel diff to minimize rear slip, then increase your front accel diff until the car goes into a four-wheel drift instead.  You shouldn't really DO this in normal driving, as it will murder your front tires, but it's usually better if the onset of slip is four-wheel rather than oversteer.

You might want to try dropping your front decel diff to 0%.  I've never had a car I feel better with anything other than 0%.  I can't see a reason to have the front diff lock under deceleration, except maybe to stabilize a car that can't be stabilized any other way.  But I'd sooner use front toe in to do this.

If all of this doesn't increase your turn-in response you might want to try lowering your front bump damper some more.  I'm more of a by-feel tuner than by-math tuner, but I think a lot of people here would say your front bump is high compared to your front rebound.  Lowering this should speed weight transfer to the front, improving front traction.  At least as long as you're not on the gas.  :)

Like I said, none of this might help.  It might completely screw the car up.  But that's what I would do as a first pass.  Well, as a few passes; I don't like to change multiple things at once.
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Ske

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2007, 10:29:57 AM »
The tires are wearing on the outside, so first off I'd increase the camber.  Maybe try -1.0 front and rear to start, and adjust from there.
The funny thing is that it's already running quite a bit of camber, and the tire misc screen doesn't show any sign of the tires "turning over"... which is why I'm reluctant to add more. I also don't want to compromise straight line braking, as that's another problem area for this car. I will give it a shot, though.

Quote
I'd reduce the caster, personally.  My general feeling with caster is that 5.0->5.5 reduces the sharpness of turn-in a bit, other than its obvious effect on camber.  I've tried 6.0 on a few cars that were way too unstable on turn-in, but it never seemed to help.  I'd try reducing caster to 5.5, or maybe even back to 5.0 and see what effect that has on turn-in.
It does feel like it could do with less caster.

Quote
The car oversteers under steady state cornering?

If it's only on throttle you get oversteer, I'd try to optimize your rear accel diff to minimize rear slip, then increase your front accel diff until the car goes into a four-wheel drift instead.  You shouldn't really DO this in normal driving, as it will murder your front tires, but it's usually better if the onset of slip is four-wheel rather than oversteer.
I probably didn't explain this phenomenon well... The oversteer only comes when I upset the car by lifting when cornering or hitting rumble strips. Through chicanes and on entry it understeers quite badly (and abruptly, there's little warning), although sometimes it feels like all four tires are losing it. After a bit further analysis it's actually quite good on power exits.

Quote
You might want to try dropping your front decel diff to 0%.  I've never had a car I feel better with anything other than 0%.  I can't see a reason to have the front diff lock under deceleration, except maybe to stabilize a car that can't be stabilized any other way.  But I'd sooner use front toe in to do this.
I started with that, but it actually felt more manageable with a bit of front decel.. which is another thing that alarms me.

Quote
Like I said, none of this might help.  It might completely screw the car up.  But that's what I would do as a first pass.  Well, as a few passes; I don't like to change multiple things at once.
That's one of the areas where I really do things wrongly... I tend to change multiple settings at once. I'll have to do my best to get rid of that bad habit  :P

Gonna give your tips a shot and see if they works..

Ske

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2007, 03:12:46 PM »
Grr, tried just about everything now... including reset to default and swapping back the original engine. Not only did I not match my best time, the handling is much the same..

I think I'll rephrase what I said earlier: This car understeers like nothing I've ever driven before. I think the other quirks I mentioned are just symptoms of me trying to push the car too hard. I'm still worried about the tires though, even with -1.5 camber they heat up a lot on the outside... it feels like they're going positive too, but the tire misc telemetry doesn't indicate them doing so at all. Something else is bothering me too, the car actually felt slightly better with a 40/40 front diff... It wasn't faster or more consistent, but it felt like it hung on a bit better... which it shouldn't.

Anyway, I think this (for me) has been updated to "the quest for front end grip".

Blooze

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2007, 03:42:56 PM »
Hang in there for a second, I think I have a build that will improve your day...

:) $
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Big Mooing Cow

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2007, 04:10:21 PM »
The funny thing is that it's already running quite a bit of camber, and the tire misc screen doesn't show any sign of the tires "turning over"... which is why I'm reluctant to add more. I also don't want to compromise straight line braking, as that's another problem area for this car. I will give it a shot, though.

I wouldn't call -0.8 a lot, unless you're drag racing.  I know I run more camber than many people out there, but my milder cars are -1.0, and I've got some with as much as -1.4!

Try to find a balance that heats the tires at the same differential front and rear, then add/remove 0.2 degrees and test out to see where you find the most grip.


I probably didn't explain this phenomenon well... The oversteer only comes when I upset the car by lifting when cornering or hitting rumble strips. Through chicanes and on entry it understeers quite badly (and abruptly, there's little warning), although sometimes it feels like all four tires are losing it. After a bit further analysis it's actually quite good on power exits.

Rumble strips I would ignore when tuning for handling balance; they'll upset your car more than any adjustment could possibly correct.

If you get lift-throttle oversteer, there's two good ways to fix it: with the suspension or with the diffs.  (You might also be feeling the effects of toe, but thankfully you're running zero toe.)   The complication is that with AWD, you can control a LOT of the car's transitional behavior with the diffs.  So you might end up masking poor damping with your diffs, or vice versa.

To reduce lift-throttle oversteer with your dampers, you need to slow the weight transfer to the front.  Do so by stiffening your rear rebound damper and/or your front bump damper.  I suggest starting with the rebound damper, as playing with your bump dampers will affect the wheel's initial response to a bump (like a rumble strip).

To reduce lift-throttle oversteer with your diffs, tighten up the rear decel diff.  It's rare to use a decel diff setting tighter than your accel setting, but for illustration purposes try setting your rear decel to a crazy-high 80%.  Your diff should lock up under even mild speed differences under deceleration, making the rear wheels refuse to turn at a different rate, and preventing your car from turning much.

After playing around, try to find a setting that makes the car tuck in a bit without that dangerous lurch to the apex you often get with an open rear decel diff.  Also be aware that the differential between your front and rear diffs will affect cornering balance.  Again I'd suggest opening the front decel diff to 0%, and adjust the rear by itself.

I don't have any Skylines, but I have a ton of Subarus and a few Porsches and other AWD cars.  When I first test drive a car, if the diffs don't feel good off the bat I set them to my most frequently-used settings:

Front: 30 / 0
Rear: 60 / 20
Center 80% rear

I almost always tweak from there depending on the car... most often the rear accel to keep neutral under throttle, and rear decel to tweak turn-in response.  But this is a good starting point for my driving style.
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Big Mooing Cow

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Re: GT-R(evisited) - Possible side project?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2007, 04:19:04 PM »
Grr, tried just about everything now... including reset to default and swapping back the original engine. Not only did I not match my best time, the handling is much the same..

I think I'll rephrase what I said earlier: This car understeers like nothing I've ever driven before. I think the other quirks I mentioned are just symptoms of me trying to push the car too hard. I'm still worried about the tires though, even with -1.5 camber they heat up a lot on the outside... it feels like they're going positive too, but the tire misc telemetry doesn't indicate them doing so at all. Something else is bothering me too, the car actually felt slightly better with a 40/40 front diff... It wasn't faster or more consistent, but it felt like it hung on a bit better... which it shouldn't.

Anyway, I think this (for me) has been updated to "the quest for front end grip".

I would ignore the Tire Misc screen in favor of the tire temp screen.  Tune for even tire temps on a worst-case track like MVS, and then peel back a bit for tracks with less time spent at full lateral G.

The camber numbers in the Tire Misc screen are extremely volatile, and are affected by bumps, rumble strips, and the like.  The tire temps show over time what part of your tires are getting the most use.

I'm surprised that your outsides are heating up more at -1.5, to be honest.  Even at MVS I have maybe only a couple cars that need more than -1.4 front camber to keep even tire temps.  Most are closer to -1.2 or -1.0.

If you're looking for front end grip specifically, the best thing to do is take as much power off the fronts as you can.  AWD kills front cornering grip on the throttle.  Set your center diff waaay to the rear.  Open your front decel diff to allow the wheels to spin independently.  Tighten your rear accel diff to get the outside wheel spinning on full throttle to help the rear end around a bit.  And open the rear decel diff to let the back end come around on the brakes.

All things equal a RWD car will have better front cornering traction than an AWD car, because the front tires never need to accelerate the car.  But tuned properly the loss of front cornering traction will be more than offset by your ability to accelerate hard out of the corners.
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