Flapping Ears For Hours (Enduro A-Blast Car Building Adventure)

[yelladog32]

Woah, this will be an adventure. The dog doesn't like the truck anymore since the brakes went out. Probably will need some engine work after the subsequent engine-braking clinic that was put on...not to mention the tires probably aren't rated for anything faster than 40 mph now; and you know those dogs, can't blow in their face but need 60 mph winds flapping through their ears to make them happy.  

My goal is to create a competitive car that can take on several tracks with varying features for endurance races against a bunch of friends.

I've just started searching through a few cars and doing research through the worksheets, archives, and toon shoppes. I plan on using the QR to get an idea for what car I'm going to use, although I already have a favorite in the Evo XI. I know, it's not a leaderboard vehicle, but I'm not looking for anything in that field as they are going to be unfavorably handicapped. It has to be a car that has a plethora of options when it comes to the track(s) since I can rebuild after each race.

I've perused the .Net thread about the trans worksheet and this is the one thing puzzling me before I venture into the tundra.

"The numbers after the torque values are torque at the rear wheel for each gear and each rpm increment." ~ Blooze

Since I'm leaning towards an AWD, would the torque change much or not at all at the rear wheel with changing the torque centering?

I've mainly been a hotlapper at best, as I've proven in the past with times which I normally can't duplicate to within .5 in a race shorter than 5 laps. I do like to learn things on my own, which has lent itself to a few bad grades in college, but I'm completely open to suggestion from knowledgeable people. I still kitchen sink it too much for my liking, and I don't mean using that spreadsheet.  

I'm still in the process of choosing a car for the task at hand. I do plan to keep this thread updated, if anything other than a hard-copy reminder that I really should just stay to "one button" racing.  

Should be a fun learning experience, or a disastrous and enigmatic frustration. I'll raise a Leiny to the former!

[feuerdog]

Using an AWD car will bring out specific advanatges and disadvantages in regards to tuning.

You'll tend to accelerate better obviously, but these cars also tend to have lower top speeds, so the track configuration will definately play a part in your success. In addition, most AWD tunes tend to fry the front tires, so if you plan to run in full sim mode for any extended length of time this will factor into your steering grip.

The Evo VI is a great car, and a former leaderboard from the FM1 days if I remember correctly. It's definately capable of being competitive. The Mines and TME Evo VIs are good too.

I personally have started retuning my AWDs to be more strongly rear torque biased. Now i've seen some 50/50 tunes be very competetive, but not in extended full sim mode races, and the AWD chassis tend to have an issue with understeer anyways.
I'd start tuning around the 20/80 split and fine tune as needed.
Front diff i'd run 20a/0d
Rear diff i'd run 40a/40d

Like i've mentioned elsewhere, some of my tuning ideas are changing, so my numbers are going to look a little different from the calculator settings i've used before. Off the top of my head, i'd run something like this for 2800lb Evo VI:

To counteract the extra workload the fronts are doing i'd do alot of rearward biasing too:
Camber -.6f/-.8r
Caster - 6
Toe - I have stuck with 0f/0r or up to .2f/.2r settings on most AWD's.
ARB - 10f/30r
Springs(your choice, but heavy rear bias, something alot closer to 50/50 distribution)
Bump @ approx 1% spring
Rebound(Plant the front, rotate the rear) - Front bump x 1.6 = Front rebound/Rear bump x 1 = Rear rebound
Aero - Make the front about 50~70% of the rear. i generally run around 100f/150r

In general, because of the good acceleration and poor top speed traits, I tend to cut a little grip from my build and add power and downforce for most tracks. The tighter twisty tracks can't take advantage of the downforce though, so it's back to pure grip builds for those.
A good test of all round performance for an AWD is Road Atlanta Long. It will test both your speed capabilities as well as your mid-to-low speed grip performance. I hate this track, for those reasons. It tends to defy my generic tuning tendencies, as well as any form of driving consistency I have.

Anyways, hope that helps a little. Keep us up to date.

Gearing will be up to you, but i've been experimenting with 1.00 4th gears, and letting both 5th and 6th be overdrives.
You may have to run a low Final around 4.0~4.4 though.

[Blooze]

Oh, arrg...  I had some pretty good numbers concerning A classed AWDs at one time but that all went up in smoke when I got a bad car record from the auction house and it wrecked my entire garage.  So, what I have to say here comes mostly from my build sheets (In my infinite wisdom, I deleted my previous test data when I started over... sometimes I am so....  )

These are some of the cars I remember being at or near the top of the list...

• 2000 Acura VIS Integra (with the AWD conversion)
• 2006 Impreza S204 (you need the Platinum Edition to get this car)
• 2006 EVO IX
• 2005 WRX STi
• 2004 Audi S4

$

[Blooze]

Sorry for the split - hitting preview did something wierd to the editor...

Anyhow, concerning the numbers in the tranny calculator - I doubt if there is any correlation between performance and torque split as far as those calculations are concerned.  The number on the sheet is only valid for you to establish shift points.

At this time, all of my A class AWD cars are set up with a 50/72 Tonka toon.  I also have the toe set at a positive .1.

I can post a specific setup if you're interested.

As I write this, I am getting the urge to reconstruct my AWD project...  something to do till October gets here...

$

[yelladog32]

Ah, good info.

I haven't officially settled on the Evo XI, or AWD for that matter. AWD allows me to get to the front rather quickly, and I hope to be able to hold off the pack as best as possible if I go that way.

It also looks like someone in the group is leaning towards the Countach. Have you seen this thing on the track. Passing the darn thing takes more out of you than playing catch-up after a miscue. The thing is so wide, it can almost be used as a your-momma joke!

There is no track list completed yet, but it is guaranteed to have some straights that I would get killed on from the setlist. I've done a race at Road Atlanta Long and I was able to build a lead in the Evo, but that was because the BLKJ guy couldn't hold his line after the Esses and subsequently fell behind several slower guys.

I was just wondering if you ever noticed a difference in torque at the rear wheels if the split was changed. I figured it would be negligible, but I guessed it'd be better if I got it straight from the tooner.

I never thought to give rear bias to camber. I've worked out the camber for the Evo XI to where the temp spread is consistently within 3-7 degrees of each other throughout the wheel . I'd have to check the numbers on what I have, but it may actually be front biased. Springs; I've always tried to keep them rear biased. I can't stand understeer, which forces me to keep things mostly rear balanced anyway.

Nah, don't post any setups, yet, Blooze. I'll work around with Fdog's numbers, but that's it for right now. That's it for now. I'm eyeing several cars in the C Class to bring up and see if they think they can play with the big boys.

[feuerdog]

My Countach(A or S class I think) is an absolute blast on 'the Ring', it took me several tunes and some serious driving to beat it. So I know it's got some serious potential.
I eventually beat it using a Porsche 911, but I don't recommend that chassis for racing with others, it simply has to be too unstable to be dominant.

In traffic i'd favor an full size FR chassis, like one of the Mustangs, Vettes, or BMWs.

The weight vs. power of BMW can take some tweaking, and is sensitive to track layout, but if you get it right these are quite capable and easy to drive fast cars.

[BarbecuePete]

We ran an endurance series earlier this year which was restricted to A class RWD 300-400hp cars, one of the main things to come out of it was that tyres can really affect the outcome, having a set of tyres that are consistent over a lot of laps really helps, so I would say to avoid any of the top 3 brands if your going for slicks, the Avon's especially will be fried after about 7-8 laps possibly even earlier. I think the 'stickiest' tyres someone used were Michelin's at least 2 of us were on Pirellis and one guy was on the Firestone's.

Also make sure you have a car which you can drive consistanly lap after lap, having the ultimate fastest car won't mean victory if you can't keep it on the black stuff. Also you say you don't like understeer but be careful not to go to far towards oversteer, again this will cause your rear tyres to wear out quicker if your sliding around corners and of course there's always the possibilty of spinning out especially if your pushing hard to catch someone or stop someone from passing you. Just a few thoughts, good luck with the races.

[Spiny Anteater]

Quite a few good points in Pete's post above, probably the most important being that you need a car you can be consistent in (that said, I seem to remember you being very quick in the muscle-inc challenges, or is my memory failing me?)

Also, as the "Firestone guy", the point about avoiding the top slicks is valid. Very valid - I would say that the PI is set for shorter races and so underestimates the extra performance of the Avons re the Firestones et al. And in an enduro, that extra life can help in the long run. Just last weekend I ran in a 25 lapper at Road America in a different championship at fm.co.uk and, although the ultimate limit was the fuel, it was noticeable that my Firestones held on for the last couple of laps before the pit better than some of the higher rated tyres on other cars.

[Detrick]

You want a car that's a complete stud in A-class at both power and handling tracks??  Go Porsche Boxter (non-AWD).  Built and tuned right and they won't be able to touch you.

[yelladog32]

Ah, I forgot about that car. I think I have one in S-Class right now, so I'll drop some upgrades and see what happens.

I tried a Saturn Sky and it ends up faster than a Golf around Sebring Short. Go figure, considering it can only handle the first and last turns better than it. Found out I can drop an LS7 engine in it. I didn't think that would be possible, but I may try that.

Also tried a Maserati GranTurismo; I think that's what it is called. That car actually surprised me around Mugello, pulling down a 1:24.0xx, only a little behind some of the other guys' cars.

This is the list of tracks we'll be putting about:
1. Laguna Seca
2. Tsukuba Long
3. Road America
4. Mugello Long
5. Sebring Long
6. Sebring Short
7. Motegi (full course)
8. Sunset Short

So from what I can see, it will be more flow and speed than turning, with Tsukuba being the exception. Time to look for more power, I guess. 

[Detrick]

The Saturn Sky with an LS7 in it is a blast to drive but, as you can imagine, it borders on missle car.  I had one in my previous life (aka, before the profile crash / garage loss).  It's a beast on the long / flowing / high speed tracks but does take a steady hand and some tuning skills to tame it down a bit.  Looking at the track list I can tell you I wouldn't choose the LS7 powered Sky unless you are really strong at driving a missle car.  Consistency is just as important as speed when you're talking about driving a successful endurance race.  I'm not sure the Sky can deliver that to you.

I've got a decent build / tune for the GranTurismo.  It's my 2nd tier Nurburgring car capable of low 7:40's quite easily - and the exhaust note is 2nd to none.  For me, it's one of the sexiest cars in the game too.  There just isn't a bad angle.  It's got a decent top speed but it won't overwhelm you with acceleration.

Other top contenders in my mind are the C6 Z06 and Viper SRT-10.  With the right tune the Z06 is a solid all around car with great acceleration, top speed, and handling.  The SRT-10 will take a little more work but can be made to handle well and that thing just accelerates like a beast.

O, and another thought, if you want to be a little different but still give your crew a run for their money give the Ford GT a shot.  Again, with some tuning patience the car can be very rewarding.

[yelladog32]

Just a quick update. I decided to go with the Boxster since I was running short on time. I already had one tuned up from one of feuerdog's spreadsheets from about 2 years ago. I ran the first race at Sebring long, and it could barely keep up with 350zs I was up against. Next race is at Tsukuba, where it should shine against those straight line monsters.



BTW, the dog isn't allowed on the fine leather seats, mainly because she sheds yellow hair everywhere. Plus, the small windows and lack of a soft top make it difficult for her to get her head into the wind. I'm looking to replace that seat with some formal dog seat, you know, to drop some weight from the vehicle.